TL:DR Version - researchers sent out identical CVs with just the names changed. Those with traditionally white British names are much more likely to get an interview than those with traditionally African or Asian names.
It begs the question is positive discrimination a solution/good thing? I'm not sure. I'd sooner the best person for every job was given it. Am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
I recall applying for a job at a nationally recognised bank in 1979. I'd been married for 12 years without any intention of having children and the man interviewing me actually said " but what if you became pregnant ....blah, blah ". I said I didn't have that in mind - did he have any children ? Needless to say I didn't get the job I'd like to say I hope that particular attitude has changed but I'm not entirely convinced.
I'm very sorry to report it hasn't changed as much as you might hope.
A significant minority of employers/hirers still admit to being reluctant to hiring young or recently married women in case they get pregnant:
It looks like its getting better, but remember these are the ones who will admit to it in a survey, how many have put what they think is the 'right' answer rather than the honest one?
I haven't tried to get a job in the 'traditional' manner for donkeys years @FlyDragon. Hasn't the practice of having no personal information on the version of the CV seen by those selecting interviewees become widespread? That way at least the shortlist is the best people for the job. Of course, the prejudices, discrimination and bias can then kick in once the candidates are sitting in front of the interviewer (s)
It was reported that Marcus Rashford's mural was defaced with racist graffiti and that the police were treating it as a racist crime. Most of the media seem to be presenting it in this way but I haven't been able to find any evidence of racist words being used to deface it. Maybe I'm wrong? Is one idiot with a spray can evidence of systematic racism in English football or in England as a whole? The Tour de France has a team of workers who spend their days covering up graffiti https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/how-the-tour-de-france-disguises-the-phallic-artwork-on-its-route/ Foreign media especially is presenting the situation to be worse than it is and I've seen a lot of posts from Americans who thought the whole crowd were chanting racist insults rather than the true number. The media is describing a 'torrent of racist abuse' via social media but doesn't back that up with any kind of evidence of numbers. Only a very few outlets seem to cite that Twitter deleted around 1000 messages that were deemed to be against their TOS. Out of over 18 million UK twitter accounts does that seem like a torrent of racist abuse? I imagine there was a lot more abuse than that but you can't say it's racist just because the target was black.
Marcus Rashford’s mural was defaced and the police are treating it as a hate crime - as racist graffiti.
I find it very strange that you invest your energy into questioning whether the graffiti was racist.
You take a very defensive position as do many others on this forum topic. I wonder what it is that many of you are trying to defend.
It seems to me a little pointless to engage in a debate when people have assumed such a defensive position to begin with.
If you are interested, I would recommend the article below, which I’ve copied an extract from.
“Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People about Race”.
“I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the existence of structural racism and its symptoms. I can no longer engage with the gulf of an emotional disconnect that white people display when a person of colour articulates their experience. You can see their eyes shut down and harden. It’s like treacle is poured into their ears, blocking up their ear canals. It’s like they can no longer hear us.
“This emotional disconnect is the conclusion of living a life oblivious to the fact that their skin colour is the norm and all others deviate from it.
“At best, white people have been taught not to mention that people of colour are “different” in case it offends us. They truly believe that the experiences of their life as a result of their skin colour can and should be universal. I just can’t engage with the bewilderment and the defensiveness as they try to grapple with the fact that not everyone experiences the world in the way that they do.
“They’ve never had to think about what it means, in power terms, to be white, so any time they’re vaguely reminded of this fact, they interpret it as an affront. Their eyes glaze over in boredom or widen in indignation. Their mouths start twitching as they get defensive. Their throats open up as they try to interrupt, itching to talk over you but not to really listen, because they need to let you know that you’ve got it wrong.
“The journey towards understanding structural racism still requires people of colour to prioritise white feelings. Even if they can hear you, they’re not really listening. It’s like something happens to the words as they leave our mouths and reach their ears. The words hit a barrier of denial and they don’t get any further.
“That’s the emotional disconnect. It’s not really surprising, because they’ve never known what it means to embrace a person of colour as a true equal, with thoughts and feelings that are as valid as their own. Watching [the documentary] The Color of Fear by Lee Mun Wah, I saw people of colour break down in tears as they struggled to convince a defiant white man that his words were enforcing and perpetuating a white racist standard on them. All the while he stared obliviously, completely confused by this pain, at best trivialising it, at worst ridiculing it.
“I’ve written before about this white denial being the ubiquitous politics of race that operates on its inherent invisibility. So I can’t talk to white people about race any more because of the consequent denials, awkward cartwheels and mental acrobatics that they display when this is brought to their attention. Who really wants to be alerted to a structural system that benefits them at the expense of others?
“I can no longer have this conversation, because we’re often coming at it from completely different places. I can’t have a conversation with them about the details of a problem if they don’t even recognise that the problem exists. Worse still is the white person who might be willing to entertain the possibility of said racism, but who thinks we enter this conversation as equals. We don’t.
“Not to mention that entering into conversation with defiant white people is a frankly dangerous task for me. As the hackles rise and the defiance grows, I have to tread incredibly carefully, because if I express frustration, anger or exasperation at their refusal to understand, they will tap into their presubscribed racist tropes about angry black people who are a threat to them and their safety. It’s very likely that they’ll then paint me as a bully or an abuser. It’s also likely that their white friends will rally round them, rewrite history and make lies the truth. Trying to engage with them and navigate their racism is not worth that.
“Amid every conversation about Nice White People feeling silenced by conversations about race, there is a sort of ironic and glaring lack of understanding or empathy for those of us who have been visibly marked out as different for our entire lives, and live the consequences. It’s truly a lifetime of self-censorship that people of colour have to live. The options are: speak your truth and face the reprisals, or bite your tongue and get ahead in life. It must be a strange life, always having permission to speak and feeling indignant when you’re finally asked to listen. It stems from white people’s never-questioned entitlement, I suppose.
“I cannot continue to emotionally exhaust myself trying to get this message across, while also toeing a very precarious line that tries not to implicate any one white person in their role of perpetuating structural racism, lest they character-assassinate me.
“So I’m no longer talking to white people about race. I don’t have a huge amount of power to change the way the world works, but I can set boundaries. I can halt the entitlement they feel towards me and I’ll start that by stopping the conversation. The balance is too far swung in their favour. Their intent is often not to listen or learn, but to exert their power, to prove me wrong, to emotionally drain me, and to rebalance the status quo. I’m not talking to white people about race unless I absolutely have to. If there’s something like a media or conference appearance that means that someone might hear what I’m saying and feel less alone, then I’ll participate. But I’m no longer dealing with people who don’t want to hear it, wish to ridicule it and, frankly, don’t deserve it.”
Well, if we stop talking, we'll never sort things out. I find this article just as prejudiced and blind as the white people it criticizes. I am not defensive, not insensitive and not unimaginative. I recognise a problem and I want to sort it out but I don't expect miracles overnight and I am sure that angry denials on either side are counterproductive. Change is hard. It comes slowly. We all need to bear that in mind.
Maybe we should listen and actually hear I am white, married to the most wonderful man who is black, raised two incredible mixed race children. In our experience little has changed except that the majority have decided that the minority doesn't really have a problem any more, box ticking gestures have been made... move on. Unfortunately there is still much understanding and listening that needs to be done.
I'm too white to understand racism and I can't be making a valid point because I'm white? We're not going to bother reading what I said or consider the facts but just post a news article that assumes I'm a mouthy, ignorant white person, the same as all the other white people?
If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
@WonkyWomble, no intelligent person could imagine that the problem is solved but things HAVE improved. I'm nearly 70 so I remember the 50's and 60's and I know things have changed. There's a long way to go, of course, and I hope that one day all people will be judged for themselves and not their race or religion or nationality or whether they are good looking or fat or short..... We won't live to see that day but talking, listening, sharing is the only way to understand and understanding is the only way to bring about change.
Posts
You might be interested in this study:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417
TL:DR Version - researchers sent out identical CVs with just the names changed. Those with traditionally white British names are much more likely to get an interview than those with traditionally African or Asian names.
A significant minority of employers/hirers still admit to being reluctant to hiring young or recently married women in case they get pregnant:
https://www.youngwomenstrust.org/media-centre/employers-say-theyd-be-reluctant-to-hire-women-who-may-have-children/
It looks like its getting better, but remember these are the ones who will admit to it in a survey, how many have put what they think is the 'right' answer rather than the honest one?
Marcus Rashford’s mural was defaced and the police are treating it as a hate crime - as racist graffiti.
“This emotional disconnect is the conclusion of living a life oblivious to the fact that their skin colour is the norm and all others deviate from it.
“At best, white people have been taught not to mention that people of colour are “different” in case it offends us. They truly believe that the experiences of their life as a result of their skin colour can and should be universal. I just can’t engage with the bewilderment and the defensiveness as they try to grapple with the fact that not everyone experiences the world in the way that they do.
“They’ve never had to think about what it means, in power terms, to be white, so any time they’re vaguely reminded of this fact, they interpret it as an affront. Their eyes glaze over in boredom or widen in indignation. Their mouths start twitching as they get defensive. Their throats open up as they try to interrupt, itching to talk over you but not to really listen, because they need to let you know that you’ve got it wrong.
“The journey towards understanding structural racism still requires people of colour to prioritise white feelings. Even if they can hear you, they’re not really listening. It’s like something happens to the words as they leave our mouths and reach their ears. The words hit a barrier of denial and they don’t get any further.
“That’s the emotional disconnect. It’s not really surprising, because they’ve never known what it means to embrace a person of colour as a true equal, with thoughts and feelings that are as valid as their own. Watching [the documentary] The Color of Fear by Lee Mun Wah, I saw people of colour break down in tears as they struggled to convince a defiant white man that his words were enforcing and perpetuating a white racist standard on them. All the while he stared obliviously, completely confused by this pain, at best trivialising it, at worst ridiculing it.
“I’ve written before about this white denial being the ubiquitous politics of race that operates on its inherent invisibility. So I can’t talk to white people about race any more because of the consequent denials, awkward cartwheels and mental acrobatics that they display when this is brought to their attention. Who really wants to be alerted to a structural system that benefits them at the expense of others?
“I can no longer have this conversation, because we’re often coming at it from completely different places. I can’t have a conversation with them about the details of a problem if they don’t even recognise that the problem exists. Worse still is the white person who might be willing to entertain the possibility of said racism, but who thinks we enter this conversation as equals. We don’t.
“Not to mention that entering into conversation with defiant white people is a frankly dangerous task for me. As the hackles rise and the defiance grows, I have to tread incredibly carefully, because if I express frustration, anger or exasperation at their refusal to understand, they will tap into their presubscribed racist tropes about angry black people who are a threat to them and their safety. It’s very likely that they’ll then paint me as a bully or an abuser. It’s also likely that their white friends will rally round them, rewrite history and make lies the truth. Trying to engage with them and navigate their racism is not worth that.
“Amid every conversation about Nice White People feeling silenced by conversations about race, there is a sort of ironic and glaring lack of understanding or empathy for those of us who have been visibly marked out as different for our entire lives, and live the consequences. It’s truly a lifetime of self-censorship that people of colour have to live. The options are: speak your truth and face the reprisals, or bite your tongue and get ahead in life. It must be a strange life, always having permission to speak and feeling indignant when you’re finally asked to listen. It stems from white people’s never-questioned entitlement, I suppose.
“I cannot continue to emotionally exhaust myself trying to get this message across, while also toeing a very precarious line that tries not to implicate any one white person in their role of perpetuating structural racism, lest they character-assassinate me.
“So I’m no longer talking to white people about race. I don’t have a huge amount of power to change the way the world works, but I can set boundaries. I can halt the entitlement they feel towards me and I’ll start that by stopping the conversation. The balance is too far swung in their favour. Their intent is often not to listen or learn, but to exert their power, to prove me wrong, to emotionally drain me, and to rebalance the status quo. I’m not talking to white people about race unless I absolutely have to. If there’s something like a media or conference appearance that means that someone might hear what I’m saying and feel less alone, then I’ll participate. But I’m no longer dealing with people who don’t want to hear it, wish to ridicule it and, frankly, don’t deserve it.”
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race
I am white, married to the most wonderful man who is black, raised two incredible mixed race children. In our experience little has changed except that the majority have decided that the minority doesn't really have a problem any more, box ticking gestures have been made... move on. Unfortunately there is still much understanding and listening that needs to be done.