I know my Grandpa went to fight for his country, even though he was in a reserved occupation and too old to be called up even if he wasn't. After the war, he never talked about it, he had some horrendous experiences. Before he went blind from the splinter of glass in his eye, from when the germans shot at him standing in the water waiting to be evacuated from dunkirk,(a bullet glanced off his spectacles) he bought and read the huge 6 volume set of Winston Churchills tome, The Second World War. He thought Winston Churchill was a great man.
You can't possibly judge the man by the standards of 2021. The world was a very different place in the 1940s, just as the 2020s is completely different from the 1970s. The 2050s will be different from now etc etc. My parents lived, and worked, through the 2nd World War. My mum often said he was roundly disliked, by all and sundry, but they were both in no doubt as to his merits. How many folk think they could have done better, in the position?
Hindsight's wonderful....
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
The trouble is we will never know if he'd be considered great in modern times because he wasn't of those times. If you believe true greatness will be great in any era then perhaps its possible if Churchill was born of the 60s or 70s he could be a great mp even pm now. Times we grew up in shape us too.
It would be good to know if his faults would exist in or of this time. We can't do that but perhaps we can look at his life with the sensibilities and ideas of acceptability from his era. With that in mind its highly likely his career was looked at very positively.
The trouble is we will never know if he'd be considered great in modern times because he wasn't of those times. If you believe true greatness will be great in any era then perhaps its possible if Churchill was born of the 60s or 70s he could be a great mp even pm now. Times we grew up in shape us too.
It would be good to know if his faults would exist in or of this time. We can't do that but perhaps we can look at his life with the sensibilities and ideas of acceptability from his era. With that in mind its highly likely his career was looked at very positively.
A racist is a racist no matter what era he/she existed/exists in.
'The power of accurate observation .... is commonly called cynicism by those that have not got it.
We just have to be grown up enough to see people as men and women and not as heroes or icons. Churchill was a politician and we know well enough that they have, er, a few personality issues, on the whole. Just because he was then and we are now, doesn't make him more or us less.
There is a difference between acknowledging and examining historical figures and the times they lived in and in treating them as sainted beings who are beyond criticism
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
He was a flawed man in many way but he was the right man in the right place when it came to resisting and eventually defeating Nazi ambitions to dominate Europe and beyond and his achievements should be recognised and celebrated.
Thank heavens he was there but no surprise either when he lost the post war election because people knew he didn't care about the "common man" and had no vision about improving life and living conditions for those who actually did the fighting or worked in the factories or mined the coal or sailed the ship or tilled the land.
Given his upbringing and social position it's hardly surprising and I don't see why his flaws shouldn't be aired and discussed but that is a whole different ball game from damming his achievements on the world stage.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
The trouble is we will never know if he'd be considered great in modern times because he wasn't of those times. If you believe true greatness will be great in any era then perhaps its possible if Churchill was born of the 60s or 70s he could be a great mp even pm now. Times we grew up in shape us too.
It would be good to know if his faults would exist in or of this time. We can't do that but perhaps we can look at his life with the sensibilities and ideas of acceptability from his era. With that in mind its highly likely his career was looked at very positively.
A racist is a racist no matter what era he/she existed/exists in.
Who isn't racist or prejudiced in other ways? The thing is people act in ways acceptable in their time. Certainly the majority do. WC is perhaps an extreme racist by today's standards but back then he was the majority. If he was of these times it's likely his prejudice wouldn't be acted on. I can accept my own prejudices but I never let them impact on others. That's because I'm a product of the 80s living now with what is acceptable now.
His faults are racist decisions that harmed a lot of people as described in the medium dot com opinion piece linked upthread. In modern days it's likely he'd not have made those decisions if under the same set of circumstances. Still a racist but a more suppressed racist as in his racism is not enacted.
I think there needs to be a discussion not on what the historical people did but on whether we are right to look back and assess with the morals of modem day. Do we find WC and others reprehensible because of our outlook in 2021? Would we have seen him differently back when he was in a position of power?
Just watched the news report on a young tennis player. Perhaps it's my curmudgeonliness but that primary school kid who said "it shows me that if you put enough effort in you can do anything! " i did not like. It's patently not true. As much as I practise I'm not going to win the US open. Talent and dedication makes an open champion but dedication alone will not. If teachers are telling kids that, are they doing them a disservice?
Should totally encourage children they can achieve anything, because the alternative is to discourage them, and then you can be certain they will fail, probably at multiple things. Sure they might not go on to win a grand slam, but they might discover a hobby for life.
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
Posts
The world was a very different place in the 1940s, just as the 2020s is completely different from the 1970s. The 2050s will be different from now etc etc.
My parents lived, and worked, through the 2nd World War. My mum often said he was roundly disliked, by all and sundry, but they were both in no doubt as to his merits.
How many folk think they could have done better, in the position?
Hindsight's wonderful....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
It would be good to know if his faults would exist in or of this time. We can't do that but perhaps we can look at his life with the sensibilities and ideas of acceptability from his era. With that in mind its highly likely his career was looked at very positively.
A racist is a racist no matter what era he/she existed/exists in.
'The power of accurate observation .... is commonly called cynicism by those that have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw'
There is a difference between acknowledging and examining historical figures and the times they lived in and in treating them as sainted beings who are beyond criticism
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Thank heavens he was there but no surprise either when he lost the post war election because people knew he didn't care about the "common man" and had no vision about improving life and living conditions for those who actually did the fighting or worked in the factories or mined the coal or sailed the ship or tilled the land.
Given his upbringing and social position it's hardly surprising and I don't see why his flaws shouldn't be aired and discussed but that is a whole different ball game from damming his achievements on the world stage.
His faults are racist decisions that harmed a lot of people as described in the medium dot com opinion piece linked upthread. In modern days it's likely he'd not have made those decisions if under the same set of circumstances. Still a racist but a more suppressed racist as in his racism is not enacted.
I think there needs to be a discussion not on what the historical people did but on whether we are right to look back and assess with the morals of modem day. Do we find WC and others reprehensible because of our outlook in 2021? Would we have seen him differently back when he was in a position of power?
Sure they might not go on to win a grand slam, but they might discover a hobby for life.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border