Imo, there is no doubt that there is structural racism in this country, and that although there are clearly efforts to change this, they are so far very slow and inadequate. However, this thread worries me; firstly it is mainly a load of white people, either saying how good they are [ virtue signalling ], or just sometimes admitting they are not perfect. Secondly I don't believe football is the major problem, it is just being used as a smoke screen, particularly by people who don't like football, because no one has any idea how to tackle the real issues.
I sincerely hope nothing I have said is problematic for @WonkyWomble and her hubby, although saying that may make me guilty of some of the things that white people are often guilty of.
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
The racists are much better at hiding it these days ... with, perhaps, the inference that they are just as prevalent. But I really think not. Friends who are, or were until retirement, secondary school teachers and university lecturers say there has been a noticeable shift in opinion over the past 40 or so years. Intolerant, derogatory classroom chatter and name calling would pass without comment in the ‘70s and ‘80s. Many in the class would join in; it was a reflection of home attitudes as well. But since then such inappropriate language would be fiercely called out by class mates. Perpetrators would be ostracised, or worse.
And these young people of the 1990s, intolerant of intolerance, have become parents now themselves and young children grow up in homes where understanding, kindness and respect for diversity prevails. But not all. Obviously. Work, through education, must continue as the bigots no longer reveal themselves. The shield of keyboard anonymity must be stripped away. I do not have a clue how but surely it is possible and governments must be much more forceful with insistence that Facebook et al. get their houses in order, and face stiff sanctions if they don’t.
I am fairly optimistic we are going in the right direction. I do not have the abhorrence of this government (despite never having voted Conservative in my life) or of politicians in general that seems quite widespread on this forum. I don’t rant at the modern world. The vile hooliganism that tainted football a generation back has largely been banished and, I believe, pernicious racism and intolerance that manifests itself through football at the present time will be a stain that will not embarrass us by the next generation.
Hard to offend me @punkdoc 😉 I have low expectations in everything human related and I feel I "know" you well enough to always consider the contextual environment of what was said to gain your true intended meaning in any instance. best wishes to you and Moira, I hope her mother returns to Good health soon x
Indeed @punkdoc ... as I keep saying, we white folk saying 'not in my name' is fine ... but then if we stand by and do nothing more nothing will change ... it is because there is structural racism in this country that people of different colours and ethnicity can't change things without us changing things too ... that's not the fault of anyone living now, it's what we were bequeathed and we were used to it and didn't notice it. It's being pointed out to us now ... how does it help anyone to turn our heads away and say that the experience of other people isn't relevant?
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
I reread my post a few times to check whether I had indeed shouted you down or twisted your words in any way or made any personal accusations against you being a racist.
I don’t believe I have done any of the above.
You provided me with what you believe is evidence of exaggeration in the media coverage of what has happened.
In response, I noted that your approach is defensive and that I find it strange that you would chose to question the issue to begin with.
I decided I do not want to engage any longer in this discussion and I then linked to an article - which I personally found enlightening - and which I was reminded of by the defensive tone of many comments on this forum.
Why ask me why I consider that this specific incident has been exaggerated in the media if you won't listen to the reasons or mock me for providing the evidence that you specifically asked for? You twisted my comment about this specific incident to imply that I'm saying that racism in the UK as a whole is being exaggerated and to imply that I support upper-class racism. You attack a tiny part of my post without reading the rest and then tell me off for defending what I said. Instead of responding to the points I make you post a long winded opinion piece designed to provoke white people. You could have made your points without using inflammatory language and suggesting that other peoples' opinions are invalid but chose to attack instead. Now tell me why you think there's a defensive tone to this thread?
If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
I tried to find images of the graffiti on the mural. On the few available images before it was covered over, most of the offensive words have been blurred out. The police describe it as 'racially aggravated' so I assume the reports that it was racist graffiti are correct. Is there any evidence to the contrary?
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour".
There were a few swear words, the phrase "Sh**e in a bucket" and some crudely drawn penises. The BBC says "Greater Manchester Police said an investigation had been launched after
the force received a report of racially aggravated damage", The Daily Mail says "Police called the defacing of the Rashford mural a 'racially aggravated' act of vandalism". Different ways of phrasing it and implying very different things. We don't know who reported it or why they considered it as racist, we don't know if racist language or imagery was used as none of that has been reported anywhere, we don't know who did it or why. The media have implied or even implicitly stated that it was racist though and it is being widely discussed now as if it was racist. I'm not defending the action or suggesting that it should be ignored but it's worth considering the facts I think. The real story isn't of one idiot with a spray can though as the aftermath has been really heart-warming and has affirmed that Rashford is a national hero.
If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
Lightening the mood for a moment, and on the subject of crudely drawn penises, my sister worked in a school where one of the desks was decorated with a whopper.
”Have you seen this, Miss Cotto?” asked the prickly headteacher. ”Hmm,” she said, arching an eyebrow, “nobody I know.”
I reread my post a few times to check whether I had indeed shouted you down or twisted your words in any way or made any personal accusations against you being a racist.
I don’t believe I have done any of the above.
You provided me with what you believe is evidence of exaggeration in the media coverage of what has happened.
In response, I noted that your approach is defensive and that I find it strange that you would chose to question the issue to begin with.
I decided I do not want to engage any longer in this discussion and I then linked to an article - which I personally found enlightening - and which I was reminded of by the defensive tone of many comments on this forum.
Why ask me why I consider that this specific incident has been exaggerated in the media if you won't listen to the reasons or mock me for providing the evidence that you specifically asked for? You twisted my comment about this specific incident to imply that I'm saying that racism in the UK as a whole is being exaggerated and to imply that I support upper-class racism. You attack a tiny part of my post without reading the rest and then tell me off for defending what I said. Instead of responding to the points I make you post a long winded opinion piece designed to provoke white people. You could have made your points without using inflammatory language and suggesting that other peoples' opinions are invalid but chose to attack instead. Now tell me why you think there's a defensive tone to this thread?
I think it is clear we are coming at things from very different places.
The tone of the rhetorical question I posed to you originally about upper class racism was perhaps unnecessary and I am happy to withdraw that comment. Though when you said that racism was limited to a minority of idiots, then the implication is that racism is not a systemic issue but something limited to the few.
With regards to the article I posted, it’s a shame you only see it as intended to ‘provoke’ but that is up to you.
As for the accusations you make about me: that I am using inflammatory language, telling you off, shouting you down, mocking you, suggesting other peoples opinions are invalid and that I am contributing to the defensive tone of this forum… well… the posts are there for everyone to read. I have said all I have to say on the matter.
Posts
However, this thread worries me; firstly it is mainly a load of white people, either saying how good they are [ virtue signalling ], or just sometimes admitting they are not perfect.
Secondly I don't believe football is the major problem, it is just being used as a smoke screen, particularly by people who don't like football, because no one has any idea how to tackle the real issues.
I sincerely hope nothing I have said is problematic for @WonkyWomble and her hubby, although saying that may make me guilty of some of the things that white people are often guilty of.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
And these young people of the 1990s, intolerant of intolerance, have become parents now themselves and young children grow up in homes where understanding, kindness and respect for diversity prevails. But not all. Obviously. Work, through education, must continue as the bigots no longer reveal themselves. The shield of keyboard anonymity must be stripped away. I do not have a clue how but surely it is possible and governments must be much more forceful with insistence that Facebook et al. get their houses in order, and face stiff sanctions if they don’t.
I am fairly optimistic we are going in the right direction. I do not have the abhorrence of this government (despite never having voted Conservative in my life) or of politicians in general that seems quite widespread on this forum. I don’t rant at the modern world. The vile hooliganism that tainted football a generation back has largely been banished and, I believe, pernicious racism and intolerance that manifests itself through football at the present time will be a stain that will not embarrass us by the next generation.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Why ask me why I consider that this specific incident has been exaggerated in the media if you won't listen to the reasons or mock me for providing the evidence that you specifically asked for? You twisted my comment about this specific incident to imply that I'm saying that racism in the UK as a whole is being exaggerated and to imply that I support upper-class racism. You attack a tiny part of my post without reading the rest and then tell me off for defending what I said. Instead of responding to the points I make you post a long winded opinion piece designed to provoke white people. You could have made your points without using inflammatory language and suggesting that other peoples' opinions are invalid but chose to attack instead. Now tell me why you think there's a defensive tone to this thread?
”Have you seen this, Miss Cotto?” asked the prickly headteacher.
”Hmm,” she said, arching an eyebrow, “nobody I know.”
Another example of ‘we don’t know what we don’t know’.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
telling you off, shouting you down, mocking you, suggesting other peoples opinions are invalid and that I am contributing to the defensive tone of this forum… well… the posts are there for everyone to read. I have said all I have to say on the matter.