@Posy - sorry, you've lost me there other than it is time to change our attitudes. I cannot see any sense in classifying people by the colour of their skin or their religion. It was simply a mention of Beauty which made me say it was in the eye of the beholder. We can all see beauty in humans, animals and plants but we don't all agree exactly what "beauty" is. It's lots of things for me as no doubt it is for others. With the advent of photo shopped humans and plants on both adverts and SM, the concept of beauty does become somewhat skewed. Altho we like to think of ourselves as civilised, IMO many of us fall far short of that definition in one way or another. I doubt anyone on this Forum ( or elsewhere come to that ) could honestly describe themselves as perfect - if that was the case we wouldn't particularly need to worry. As it is, we have many issues to address and not an awful lot of time to do it in. People bang on about Globalism but we are a long way from that yet. Disregarding the Ants, Slugs, etc. humans are the other prolific species which can actually make a difference to life on this Earth and we are making a pretty poor show of it so far. The sooner we collectively get our act together, the better. In desperation, I am considering putting up one of my Giant African Snails for Parliament - 2 White and 1 Brown live happily together so they know about the issues raised in this thread
Organisations are desperately discriminating positively so they can't be accused of an ism. Adverts, TV programmes, sports presenters and pundits, etc. all seem to be populated by people who 'tick boxes'. I've worked on TV productions where the main actor has walked into a readthrough and declared it "too white", walked into a production office and said the same and the production has wasted valuable time trying to find (mainly entry level) non-white crew only to find that there aren't any.
In terms of race, I believe in the 2011 census 3.3% of the population were classed as black and another 10-11% were from other ethnic groups. Therefore, 86% were white. In terms of being fairly represented (statistically), that would mean approximately 5 out of every 6 faces would be white.
It begs the question is positive discrimination a solution/good thing? I'm not sure. I'd sooner the best person for every job was given it. Am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
I've just read this... I really do despair of this country. I've put this here as the conversation seems to have moved to discussing discrimination as a whole...and it's garden related.
@Loxley I have been trying to find birthday cards depicting little black girls (and boys) for the last 14 years.I flatly refuse to send my grandaughter any card with a little blue eyed white blonde depicted. I tried to get answers from these large greetings card outlets,with no replies. They to me, are one of the worst offenders.
Why can't you draw your own - or set up a company to fill that gap in the market? Isn't that what happens? There's a hole and some entrepreneur exploits it. If there's money to be made, someone will do it - unless an ism is stopping them. I would guess that because 85+% of the UK is classed as 'white', then the cards reflect that - that is the majority sold. And if you then had cards with black children, what about the Asian...blah communities. So the market that drives this is just some commercial enterprise isn't it? I would guess that at some point it isn't commercially viable to go down to all the ethnic splits route unless you can corner the whole market.
BUT isn't what you've just said the issue anyway? Conversely,why would I as a 'white' person want a card then with a black person? We both obviously see colour don't we? We don't just say 'oh that's a nice card showing a happy child'. And isn't that then the intrinsically 'ist' part - and everybody does that?
My point really was about the effect commercial beauty standards can have on a child growing up, it clearly does have an impact psychologically. This girl had subconsciously absorbed the message that fair hair and blue eyes = beauty, dark skinned = ugly, and blubbed out that opinion to her beautiful dark skinned mother without a second's thought. Trivial? Maybe. It's something white people don't really have to think about.
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour".
Positive discrimination is just discrimination. It's just as wrong as any discrimination.
If you have selection criteria for something that is the way you discriminate, not by something the applicant has no knowledge of - or then using something to discriminate that would normally be 'ist' is no way to pre-select candidates.
There may be no sense in it but for thousands of years these things have been used and still are as a means of distinguishing status and power. Look at the ongoing conflicts in Ireland, Syria or Israel based on religious allegiance. The caste system in India denotes your 'place' in society while here, accent, education and family still count for much. Skin colour or race is hugely significant in the west but in China it could get you into a detention centre and in parts of Africa it is the basis of ancient fueds. And just look at the history of the Balkans. Human society is hierarchical and your race, colour, religion, class etc are major signifiers of where you stand. It may not be sensible but it IS powerful and hard to change.
@Loxley I think commercial beauty standards can be damaging for nearly everyone. The growth of the plastic surgery business and of psychological problems in the young is evidence that well-being has been sacrificed to commercial success.
It begs the question is positive discrimination a solution/good thing? I'm not sure. I'd sooner the best person for every job was given it. Am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
It's not an easy question to answer @Biglad - it not only relates to ethnicity but also to gender. I recall applying for a job at a nationally recognised bank in 1979. I'd been married for 12 years without any intention of having children and the man interviewing me actually said " but what if you became pregnant ....blah, blah ". I said I didn't have that in mind - did he have any children ? Needless to say I didn't get the job I'd like to say I hope that particular attitude has changed but I'm not entirely convinced. The best person for the job makes basic sense - without knowing the ethnicity or gender of people applying for jobs these days, it is practically impossible to tell whether people are dismissed out of hand for one reason or another which doesn't reflect on their abilities.
I really hope this gets dealt with properly. Despite how bad this is being made to look in the media we still have to remember that the UK has come a long way in recent years, despite being dragged back by racist political parties and certain media outlets. Compare the UK to what's happening almost everywhere else in the world and let those without sin cast the first stone. We're light years ahead of the USA and many many other countries that suffer from systemic racism. Italy have been repeatedly punished by UEFA for racism as have almost every European country. If it wasn't for a minority of idiots in this country we would be one of the world leaders for equality and diversity. There's a long way to go, and dealing with any situation like this is a very important step, but let's not pretend the situation in England is any different from elsewhere in the world right now.
“Despite how bad this is being made to look in the media”
Are you actually implying that the media are making this country’s racism appear more inflated than it is? How would you know that, exactly? And why on earth would the media want to exaggerate this country’s racism when the media is usually at the forefront of inflaming such racist rhetoric in the first place.
I’m also speechless by your claim that the UK would be “one of the world leaders of equality and diversity” if it wasn’t for a “minority”?
Again, are you genuinely implying that the “minority” are the only problem? Are the racist and xenophobic policies and language of Boris Johnson and Priti Patel also part of the minority? Or doesn’t that kind of polite, well-educated upper-class racism, count?
It was reported that Marcus Rashford's mural was defaced with racist graffiti and that the police were treating it as a racist crime. Most of the media seem to be presenting it in this way but I haven't been able to find any evidence of racist words being used to deface it. Maybe I'm wrong? Is one idiot with a spray can evidence of systematic racism in English football or in England as a whole? The Tour de France has a team of workers who spend their days covering up graffiti https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/how-the-tour-de-france-disguises-the-phallic-artwork-on-its-route/ Foreign media especially is presenting the situation to be worse than it is and I've seen a lot of posts from Americans who thought the whole crowd were chanting racist insults rather than the true number. The media is describing a 'torrent of racist abuse' via social media but doesn't back that up with any kind of evidence of numbers. Only a very few outlets seem to cite that Twitter deleted around 1000 messages that were deemed to be against their TOS. Out of over 18 million UK twitter accounts does that seem like a torrent of racist abuse? I imagine there was a lot more abuse than that but you can't say it's racist just because the target was black. I'm speechless that you would write off the progress this country has made in recent years because of the actions of a few idiot football fans. I agree though that Boris and co have dragged progress back by at least a decade in some areas and this situation now reflects very badly on them. I'm glad they're being called out on their hypocracy. The upper-class and political racism needs tackling just as much as any football hooliganism and if Boris really wants England to regain its reputation on the world stage then he needs to get on top of this from both ends.
If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
@Loxley I think commercial beauty standards can be damaging for nearly everyone. The growth of the plastic surgery business and of psychological problems in the young is evidence that well-being has been sacrificed to commercial success.
Oh I agree. We're not even scratching the surface, and the whole princesses-as-role-models-for-girls thing is sketchy in any case.
Look at what Disney did to their only ever black princess when they rebooted her role in 2018. Film execs just can't help themselves defaulting back to euro-centric characters.
I know this seems kind of trivial, but the media does play such a big part in how we see ourselves and others.
Are we really getting 'the best person for the job' if people have their perception of other people clouded by race or gender assumptions?
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour".
Posts
It was simply a mention of Beauty which made me say it was in the eye of the beholder. We can all see beauty in humans, animals and plants but we don't all agree exactly what "beauty" is. It's lots of things for me as no doubt it is for others. With the advent of photo shopped humans and plants on both adverts and SM, the concept of beauty does become somewhat skewed.
Altho we like to think of ourselves as civilised, IMO many of us fall far short of that definition in one way or another. I doubt anyone on this Forum ( or elsewhere come to that ) could honestly describe themselves as perfect - if that was the case we wouldn't particularly need to worry. As it is, we have many issues to address and not an awful lot of time to do it in. People bang on about Globalism but we are a long way from that yet. Disregarding the Ants, Slugs, etc. humans are the other prolific species which can actually make a difference to life on this Earth and we are making a pretty poor show of it so far.
The sooner we collectively get our act together, the better.
In desperation, I am considering putting up one of my Giant African Snails for Parliament - 2 White and 1 Brown live happily together so they know about the issues raised in this thread
Organisations are desperately discriminating positively so they can't be accused of an ism. Adverts, TV programmes, sports presenters and pundits, etc. all seem to be populated by people who 'tick boxes'. I've worked on TV productions where the main actor has walked into a readthrough and declared it "too white", walked into a production office and said the same and the production has wasted valuable time trying to find (mainly entry level) non-white crew only to find that there aren't any.
In terms of race, I believe in the 2011 census 3.3% of the population were classed as black and another 10-11% were from other ethnic groups. Therefore, 86% were white. In terms of being fairly represented (statistically), that would mean approximately 5 out of every 6 faces would be white.
It begs the question is positive discrimination a solution/good thing? I'm not sure. I'd sooner the best person for every job was given it. Am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
I recall applying for a job at a nationally recognised bank in 1979. I'd been married for 12 years without any intention of having children and the man interviewing me actually said " but what if you became pregnant ....blah, blah ". I said I didn't have that in mind - did he have any children ? Needless to say I didn't get the job
I'd like to say I hope that particular attitude has changed but I'm not entirely convinced.
The best person for the job makes basic sense - without knowing the ethnicity or gender of people applying for jobs these days, it is practically impossible to tell whether people are dismissed out of hand for one reason or another which doesn't reflect on their abilities.
It was reported that Marcus Rashford's mural was defaced with racist graffiti and that the police were treating it as a racist crime. Most of the media seem to be presenting it in this way but I haven't been able to find any evidence of racist words being used to deface it. Maybe I'm wrong? Is one idiot with a spray can evidence of systematic racism in English football or in England as a whole? The Tour de France has a team of workers who spend their days covering up graffiti https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/how-the-tour-de-france-disguises-the-phallic-artwork-on-its-route/ Foreign media especially is presenting the situation to be worse than it is and I've seen a lot of posts from Americans who thought the whole crowd were chanting racist insults rather than the true number. The media is describing a 'torrent of racist abuse' via social media but doesn't back that up with any kind of evidence of numbers. Only a very few outlets seem to cite that Twitter deleted around 1000 messages that were deemed to be against their TOS. Out of over 18 million UK twitter accounts does that seem like a torrent of racist abuse? I imagine there was a lot more abuse than that but you can't say it's racist just because the target was black.
I'm speechless that you would write off the progress this country has made in recent years because of the actions of a few idiot football fans. I agree though that Boris and co have dragged progress back by at least a decade in some areas and this situation now reflects very badly on them. I'm glad they're being called out on their hypocracy. The upper-class and political racism needs tackling just as much as any football hooliganism and if Boris really wants England to regain its reputation on the world stage then he needs to get on top of this from both ends.
Look at what Disney did to their only ever black princess when they rebooted her role in 2018. Film execs just can't help themselves defaulting back to euro-centric characters.
I know this seems kind of trivial, but the media does play such a big part in how we see ourselves and others.
Are we really getting 'the best person for the job' if people have their perception of other people clouded by race or gender assumptions?