Yesterday was the first day I had been into a shop since wearing masks became compulsory. I noticed that many more people were invading my space and wondering around the shop ignoring the one way arrows. It was as if they thought that wearing a mask was protection enough and meant they didn't need to keep their distance. The few I challenged seemed quite suprised that I said anything. I must admit that they were mostly elderly.
I think it is hard for elderly people, a lot were staying shielded for a long time so they haven’t had as long to get used to the new ways of doing things.
Also with hearing and vision, my grandma completely refuses to wear a hearing aid so she instinctively tries to lean and get close to people to hear them, I have to remind her not to, and being visually impaired she struggles to judge the appropriate distance.
This whole thing has been really rough on elderly people
Of course not @steveTu ... but every new manufacturer has to go through the process to get a Kitemark on their product ... all those already confirming to the standards were being bought for the NHS ... and most manufacturers were in China anyway.
There was stuff bought that turned out not to be ok.
Yes it’s a mess ... but the world has been turned upside down and shaken as if it was a snowglobe ... the ‘givens’ don’t apply any more.
Yes people should get the procedures right, but equally we should behave as if no one has followed them ... that’s what we’re doing. We’re sanitising or wiping with dilute bleach every item that comes into the house. Post and packages are left in sunlight for 48 hours before we touch them.
As for folk who say they’re exempt from wearing a mask ... of course OH would be fine with that ... but no one has so far ... every single customer has worn a mask except for one elderly lady who had forgotten hers ... the staff just backed off and let her choose her items and dealt with the purchase as distanced as possible but politely.
Maybe in the west we just don’t like being told what to do nowadays ... maybe we’ll have to get used to it again.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Oh, how I agree with that. I am getting really fed up with people berating politicians for doing this, not doing that. It is just too fashionable to lambast them and claim you know better. It might not be a very popular view but I think most politicians are decent, honourable people trying their best to do what is right for the country in unprecedented times.
I follow government recommendations and do so ungrudgingly. Now, does anyone know of some nearby uninhabited island preferably with lousy wifi where we can dump the conspiracy theorists and let them chunter away to one another to their hearts’ content?
I agree @BenCotto that most of our politicians are doing their best ... the problem is that some of them don’t have the qualities needed ... they were elected for a different purpose ... to get just one thing done ... it’s a shame the electorate wasn’t a little more farsighted ... but that’s the way our democracy seems to work at the moment ... single issue politics.
Perhaps one day we might elect our politicians on their merits rather than their party ... but that’s for another day ... we are where we are. 🙄
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
@steveTu, the article you mention is a meta analysis [ a study that looks at other published studies, on the same subject. ] It has not currently been peer reviewed [ reviewed by other experts, plus statistics checked ] Also it looks at several other viruses. [ SARS ] and only examines 4 studies in total.
However it shows there is a benefit [ if caveats are accepted ]
At the moment you have to wear a mask for certain activities. You should ensure that it is suitable for purpose and wear it properly.
As most on here know, I think the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, but I wear one, when it is advised, or compulsory.
I should probably add, that I have been asked to write a comment on this paper for a local Rag [ not a scientific one ]
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
I shouldn't write - I know I come across as arsey and confrontational - apologies - unintentional.
I don't think I'm arguing against the wearing of masks - I have and will follow any advice that the gov proposes on the assumption that they know more than I do. They have the expert advice. And I know millions of others are the same as me and are just trying to do the 'right' thing.What I'm simply saying is that masks have their own issues - that I've seen personally and continue to see. A sentiment that is echoed in that publication - quite an interesting read (I'm a bit slow reading since my stroke) so far - page 16 and still no evidence and no research into secondary transmission (ie transmission by hand after contact with an infected mask and vice versa) so far. Plus it seems that the majority of the research is based on lab settings or disecting the data from other pandemics, not specific public environment testing (again a point the author keeps emphasising). So I think the research is more 'does a mask stop droplets/aerosol' - and yes they do (I don't dispute that) - and which mask 'build' then is most effective. And because multiple interventions occurred at the same time (ie lockdown,distancing and masks) - how you judge the effectiveness of any given intervention in a live setting loses me somewhat.
Back to page 17....
PS I would say that the biggest factor so far, from what I've seen, was lockdown. Irrespective that China had a large proportion wearing masks, the authoritarian gov over there just closed things down. Fast lockdown and tracing contacts. Or maybe fiddling the figures to make it look better also has an impact?
People need to be educated on how to wear a mask.. just as I will be educating my primary students on wearing a mask in a few short weeks. Modeling, discussion on benefits and the 'why', etc. Not appropriate for my students, but I feel there should be more education to the public on fitting a mask. Those flat tshirt material ones are terrible.. they flatten the nose uncomfortably and pull on the ears or else slip down past the nose.. requiring constant adjustment. The ones I made with a nose wire and elastic that goes all the way around the back of the head (above and below the ears) do not require fiddling or adjustment. They are uncomfortable.. and some times my nose itches or condensation builds on my upper lips.. but I resist the urge to itch, because I KNOW not to contaminate myself or my mask. This requires a real media action by the health organizations and gov't to educate the public on this 'brave new world'.. wearing a quality mask properly, STILL physically distancing, etc.
Personally, I am unworried by contaminated surfaces for myself.. I can refrain from licking cart handles or sticking my finger up my nose after touching a shared public surface. I use hand sanitizer before entering my car and give my hands a proper wash at home. I keep my pantry items in the bags in our laundry room for three days, and wash everything else with soapy water and a good rinse (or a soapy rag if it's cardboard packaging).. take packaging off deliveries outside on the porch, washing hands before picking up the items I dumped onto the patio, etc. I can control the surface issue.. what I can not control is the shared air we breath in public spaces.
Thanks - I got the meta data bit (eventually!) ....and the paper also refers to other 'non peer reviewed' papers... Given the timing with all this, have you then seen any peer reviewed papers out there that are accessible to the public?
I didn't get the overall conclusion that they are beneficial overall. The comments in section 6 say (and even then the other caveats apply):
'...Cloth face coverings are effective in reducing source
virus transmission, i.e., outward protection of others, when
they are of optimal material and construction (high grade
cotton, hybrid and multilayer) and fitted correctly and for
source protection of the wearer...'
and even that was countered with the Government publication that then stated (from Appendix 4 and elsewhere):
'...It is important to know that the evidence of the benefit of
using a face covering to protect others is weak and the
effect is likely to be small, therefore face coverings are
not a replacement for the other ways of managing risk,
including minimising time spent in contact, using fixed teams
and partnering for close-up work, and increasing hand and
surface washing. These other measures remain the best
ways of managing risk in the workplace and government
would therefore not expect to see employers relying on
face coverings as risk management for the purpose of their
health and safety assessments.....'
I still didn't see any review of the downsides of wearing masks - apart from a couple of comments re correct fitting, not touching etc....IE the gov does say again from appendix 4:
'• Wash your hands thoroughly with soap and water for
20 seconds or use hand sanitiser before putting a face
covering on, and before and after removing it.
• When wearing a face covering, avoid touching your face
or face covering, as you could contaminate them with
germs from your hands.
• Change your face covering if it becomes damp or if
you’ve touched it.
• Continue to wash your hands regularly.
• Change and wash your face covering daily.
• If the material is washable, wash in line with
manufacturer’s instructions. If it’s not washable, dispose of
it carefully in your usual waste.
• Practise social distancing wherever possible.'
I wonder how many people adopt point 3? I certainly didn't in my first foray as the Lone Ranger - or was his mask over his eyes like Superman? I'm amazed point 2 also doesn't point out that touching the mask may also then contaminate your hand and anything that you consequentially touch. Oh well.
I seriously think it's dubious using such terms as 'optimal material and construction' - without a definition - and that definition not being 'out there' in the public realm - especially given figure 5. How many people (my daughter was/is still using a snood) know what optimal material and construction means? Is figure 5 'optimal'? If someone is going to say that something is 'fit for purpose' - I think for the general public, it has to be marked as such (sorry Dove!), or else people will think they're safe(r) when they're potentially not (as safe)
PS - if the supply of surgical masks should be kept for those in the medical/care services, shouldn't the gov be controlling supply? I went and bought masks from Argos - and they were selling disposable surgical masks that I'd seen others wearing. I just assumed that there was now a glut - or else why would Argos of all places be selling them? I won't buy them again.
But after all that, the world is good - Spurs finished above Woolwich again... Just proves that G_d exists eh? No? Ok, it proves bugger all.....
Posts
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Perhaps one day we might elect our politicians on their merits rather than their party ... but that’s for another day ... we are where we are. 🙄
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
It has not currently been peer reviewed [ reviewed by other experts, plus statistics checked ]
Also it looks at several other viruses. [ SARS ] and only examines 4 studies in total.
However it shows there is a benefit [ if caveats are accepted ]
At the moment you have to wear a mask for certain activities. You should ensure that it is suitable for purpose and wear it properly.
As most on here know, I think the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, but I wear one, when it is advised, or compulsory.
I should probably add, that I have been asked to write a comment on this paper for a local Rag [ not a scientific one ]
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Personally, I am unworried by contaminated surfaces for myself.. I can refrain from licking cart handles or sticking my finger up my nose after touching a shared public surface. I use hand sanitizer before entering my car and give my hands a proper wash at home. I keep my pantry items in the bags in our laundry room for three days, and wash everything else with soapy water and a good rinse (or a soapy rag if it's cardboard packaging).. take packaging off deliveries outside on the porch, washing hands before picking up the items I dumped onto the patio, etc. I can control the surface issue.. what I can not control is the shared air we breath in public spaces.
virus transmission, i.e., outward protection of others, when
they are of optimal material and construction (high grade
cotton, hybrid and multilayer) and fitted correctly and for
source protection of the wearer...'
using a face covering to protect others is weak and the
effect is likely to be small, therefore face coverings are
not a replacement for the other ways of managing risk,
including minimising time spent in contact, using fixed teams
and partnering for close-up work, and increasing hand and
surface washing. These other measures remain the best
ways of managing risk in the workplace and government
would therefore not expect to see employers relying on
face coverings as risk management for the purpose of their
health and safety assessments.....'
20 seconds or use hand sanitiser before putting a face
covering on, and before and after removing it.
• When wearing a face covering, avoid touching your face
or face covering, as you could contaminate them with
germs from your hands.
• Change your face covering if it becomes damp or if
you’ve touched it.
• Continue to wash your hands regularly.
• Change and wash your face covering daily.
• If the material is washable, wash in line with
manufacturer’s instructions. If it’s not washable, dispose of
it carefully in your usual waste.
• Practise social distancing wherever possible.'