OUT ... and not because of scaremongering, I have spent hours researching, delving and digging to satisfy myself which observations made by either faction I feel to be true as well as those comments I find impossible to believe. The main false observation made by the IN club is that they know we will be worse off. WRONG... nobody KNOWS because this has never been done before. They may think we will, but should not state this as a certain fact. I also dislike the way Cameron has agreed to a public debate, but only on his terms. If he is so certain of his facts, why would he care who he debates against? I would have more respect for, and belief in, the man if he agreed to debate against whoever the out party wanted to put forward.
Personally, I think it won't make a blind bit of difference however we vote, somehow Cameron will get his way, be it legitimate or otherwise.
If Cameron had actually negotiated any major improvements / changes before charging into the referendum we probably wouldn't need this conversation. We are now in an incredibly weakened position. If we vote to stay in we will never get any concessions from the EU on anything.
National Farmers Union - IN [ Yes the farmers union's official position ]
The British government - IN
The Labour Party - IN
The Liberal Democrats - IN
USA President - IN
Australian Government - IN
Chinese Government - IN.
President Putin - OUT
Donald Trump - OUT
Boris Johnson - OUT.
Nigel Farage - OUT
All accurate, check if you don't believe me.
I know which side I come down on.
Verdun, I don't want to cause any more fights with you, but you are wrong about trade with Australia and NZ., they both have trade agreements with the EU.
Whilst it is great to have a thread discussing opinions, we should be careful about stating things as fact, when they are not.
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
As KT53 says, Cameron went to negotiate. Basically they just laughed at him. He got nowhere. Our interests and wishes are ignored when we are in, but they want our money to fund further expansion.
I do think that even if there is a majority out vote, there will be an excuse for us to stay in.
Don't think Pdoc or anyone else has had a go at anyone, nothing wrong with questioning sources and healthy debate
I have to confess that its with a heavy heart that I have to actually think about whether I'm a yes or no. If Europe hadn't been so badly managed/ handled it never would have come to this. I find it hard to imagine a country that wouldn't be allowed in Europe nowadays, from the original number of member countries it has expanded beyond recognition! I know all these big companies that are already wealthy anyway want us to stay in, however, I'm at the bottom of the food chain, low paid support worker for adults with learning disabilities, rented accommodation in low rent district full of hostels and not a word of English spoken. There is very little work or hope of prospects let alone social mobility and I don't hear anything from the IN campaign that is relevant to my world. In fact everybody that I know that is in the IN camp, is reasonably comfortable, and just like in scotland, its the ones that are all right jack now, that are
...voting to stay that way. I hate to feel like this, I love being part of a multicultural society but if you took a walk down my street you would see I'm a minority of one and its now beyond a joke. I still don't know if my hope or fear will lead my vote, I wish I could just wake up and it be a nice little group of countries like it used to be instead of the world being carved up into four trading fractions.
I am really grateful for this debate though as I am interested in as many vantages as I can take in, so thank you all but please play nicely
There are areas of Sheffield, Derby, and Nottingham, where it is not safe for a lone female to walk alone. There have always been bad areas, but now they seem worse.
Our lovely England it so used to be. I remember hop picking with my mother in the sunny fields of Kent during the summer holiday, and spending weekends at our caravan. Why did the summers always seem so long and hot in those days (although I also remember the summer of 76 like it was yesterday, well of all years to be 8 months pregnant, I'm hardly likely to forget ). The point I'm trying to make is I wonder what our children/grandchildren will remember happily when we are long gone? Somehow, idyllic weekends in the country doesn't seem likely .
On a different note, isn't it strange how you can imagine people when you haven't met them and are new on here - I was convinced Punkdoc was a female. I had lovely visions of her (him) with spiky hair, blue jeans and bright red doc martens . Sorry Punkdoc .
Posts
OUT
... and not because of scaremongering, I have spent hours researching, delving and digging to satisfy myself which observations made by either faction I feel to be true as well as those comments I find impossible to believe. The main false observation made by the IN club is that they know we will be worse off. WRONG... nobody KNOWS because this has never been done before. They may think we will, but should not state this as a certain fact. I also dislike the way Cameron has agreed to a public debate, but only on his terms. If he is so certain of his facts, why would he care who he debates against? I would have more respect for, and belief in, the man if he agreed to debate against whoever the out party wanted to put forward.
Personally, I think it won't make a blind bit of difference however we vote, somehow Cameron will get his way, be it legitimate or otherwise.
If Cameron had actually negotiated any major improvements / changes before charging into the referendum we probably wouldn't need this conversation. We are now in an incredibly weakened position. If we vote to stay in we will never get any concessions from the EU on anything.
IMF - IN
Bank of England - IN.
National Farmers Union - IN [ Yes the farmers union's official position ]
The British government - IN
The Labour Party - IN
The Liberal Democrats - IN
USA President - IN
Australian Government - IN
Chinese Government - IN.
President Putin - OUT
Donald Trump - OUT
Boris Johnson - OUT.
Nigel Farage - OUT
All accurate, check if you don't believe me.
I know which side I come down on.
Verdun, I don't want to cause any more fights with you, but you are wrong about trade with Australia and NZ., they both have trade agreements with the EU.
Whilst it is great to have a thread discussing opinions, we should be careful about stating things as fact, when they are not.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
As KT53 says, Cameron went to negotiate. Basically they just laughed at him. He got nowhere. Our interests and wishes are ignored when we are in, but they want our money to fund further expansion.
I do think that even if there is a majority out vote, there will be an excuse for us to stay in.
Don't think Pdoc or anyone else has had a go at anyone, nothing wrong with questioning sources and healthy debate
I have to confess that its with a heavy heart that I have to actually think about whether I'm a yes or no. If Europe hadn't been so badly managed/ handled it never would have come to this. I find it hard to imagine a country that wouldn't be allowed in Europe nowadays, from the original number of member countries it has expanded beyond recognition! I know all these big companies that are already wealthy anyway want us to stay in, however, I'm at the bottom of the food chain, low paid support worker for adults with learning disabilities, rented accommodation in low rent district full of hostels and not a word of English spoken. There is very little work or hope of prospects let alone social mobility and I don't hear anything from the IN campaign that is relevant to my world. In fact everybody that I know that is in the IN camp, is reasonably comfortable, and just like in scotland, its the ones that are all right jack now, that are
...voting to stay that way. I hate to feel like this, I love being part of a multicultural society but if you took a walk down my street you would see I'm a minority of one and its now beyond a joke. I still don't know if my hope or fear will lead my vote, I wish I could just wake up and it be a nice little group of countries like it used to be instead of the world being carved up into four trading fractions.
I am really grateful for this debate though as I am interested in as many vantages as I can take in, so thank you all but please play nicely
Keep yourself safe, wonky.
There are areas of Sheffield, Derby, and Nottingham, where it is not safe for a lone female to walk alone. There have always been bad areas, but now they seem worse.
Our lovely England
it so used to be. I remember hop picking with my mother in the sunny fields of Kent during the summer holiday, and spending weekends at our caravan. Why did the summers always seem so long and hot in those days (although I also remember the summer of 76 like it was yesterday, well of all years to be 8 months pregnant, I'm hardly likely to forget 
). The point I'm trying to make is I wonder what our children/grandchildren will remember happily when we are long gone? Somehow, idyllic weekends in the country doesn't seem likely 
.
On a different note, isn't it strange how you can imagine people when you haven't met them and are new on here - I was convinced Punkdoc was a female. I had lovely visions of her (him) with spiky hair, blue jeans and bright red doc martens
. Sorry Punkdoc 
.