We never needed automobiles until we did. The world has changed, we need to adapt. However, to avoid disenfranchising a large number of people, new forms of identification, must be available to all, before they are required. It is a total nonsense that carrying a card, takes away our liberty, it will make us safer.
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
I thought all young people already have to have an ID card to prove their age when buying alcohol or going into a nightclub. They don't seem fussed about it.
I'm all for voting ID cards and believe we should have had them long ago. Personally I think voting fraud is rife especially in big cities and think postal votes an absolute no-no.
I don’t really follow your argument there, @JoeX. “If I meet someone in the street I introduce myself, if they say “prove it” I say “this isn’t wartime, sunshine”. What an odd thing to say!
So much information is known about us by government agencies and other institutions there is now quite a likelihood that we’ll have no more censuses. I would welcome having a card with key data on it, as exists in France, so that if, for example, I moved house I could prove to the bank, the new doctor’s surgery and anyone else who needed to know I am who I claim to be. If I was in an accident I could be identified in an instant, if I voted fraud would be nigh impossible.
I have been looking up the Electoral Commission’s report on fraud. I found it very interesting
In 2019 there were 142 reported instances of suspicious voting. 109 were dismissed because there was no or insufficient evidence. 27 cases were “locally resolved” and 6 resulted in legal proceedings.
In the general election that year 32.1 million people voted. I’ll guess about 10 million more voted in that year’s local, mayoral, European and by elections. So, 1 vote in every 300,000 has a hint of suspicion, 1 in 1.3 million is definitely suspicious and 1 in 7 million leads to legal action. Not a pressing problem, is it? Or is there a wider, undiscovered, issue of fraud which we’re unable to discover using the voting practices currently in place? One thing I do know, wouldn’t Americans love an electoral process comparatively so untainted?
'...If I meet someone in the street I introduce myself, if they say “prove it” I say “this isn’t wartime, sunshine”....'
I'm not sure that anyone ever does that do they? That isn't what was being said I don't think. But if you do need to offer proof of who you are - ie to vote - then I'm not sure I see a problem.
Those things I listed have happened. They are there. TVs now have voice activation. White goods are chipped - cars are chipped. Each generation has willingly given up their data for ease of access or to 'enhance' (? spending all day and living their life via a proxy (pun intended) mobile is enhancement apparently) their lifestyle. Personally, I'd rather not have so mush tech, but tech has saved millions in costs. Automated voting? Do I need three people in a polling station checking my details? Why can't I vote online? But how do I ID myself? ID cards are already old hat. That won't be the way forward anyway. You identify you. Banking has/is going biometric, and the govs will follow (wasn't that the point of the change in passports years back - wasn't the mag strip to enable biometrics?).
I thought all young people already have to have an ID card to prove their age when buying alcohol or going into a nightclub. They don't seem fussed about it.
I'm all for voting ID cards and believe we should have had them long ago. Personally I think voting fraud is rife especially in big cities and think postal votes an absolute no-no.
A very valid point about young people needing ID for various purposes and them accepting that fact. It's clearly in their immediate interest to do so. Walk around our town any lunch time and you will see hundreds of people walking around with uni or work ID round their necks. What's the difference between that and a general ID card?
I will be signing. If we had a free-to-access ID card in the uk I wouldn't have a problem. But we don't. Neither do we have a significant voter fraud problem, as eloquently demonstrated by BenCotto, so it is not much of a stretch, especially with the Tories history of altering boundaries in their favour etc, to suspect that this is about limiting the voting power of already under-represented groups.
The 'doesn't everyone have ID anyway?' argument is centred on people like us (I use 'us' broadly obviously, but those with the technological and financial means to express an interest in gardening via the internet are more likely than not to have ID). 'People like us' do not represent the whole of our society. Believe it or not there are people, many of them, for whom spending £15 on an ID card to be able to exercise their RIGHT to vote will not take priority over being able to feed their family.
I think the postal vote is the one that's open to fraud and coercion I remember one of my students telling me that her daughter had a mental disability so her father always voted for her. If a person goes into a booth, their vote is their own. They can safely lie to whoever in their household would steal their vote. In some postal voting households, the father/ husband ( usually) is able to consider the entire family's votes his own .
Go into any town centre any night of the week and you're on camera/cctv In every major shopping centre too. The 'because we're free' argument really doesn't stand up.
How can say there isn't voter fraud? How do you know that?
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
How can say there isn't voter fraud? How do you know that?
I think the point is that any voter fraud that does go on is insignificant, purely because the system doesn't allow for anyone to do a huge load of votes at once. Even if you were to create a load of imaginary voters on the electoral roll for your house, someone has to actually cast all those votes. The kind of voter fraud that does go on is likely people pretending to be friends/family members and therefore affects one or two votes. Compare that with the effect this change would have to the numbers of votes cast and it looks grossly disproportionate.
Beside all that, those that would like to interfere with our electoral system don't need to actually commit fraud. They can use sophisticated ways of convincing folk to vote against their own interests instead 😉
Posts
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
The world has changed, we need to adapt.
However, to avoid disenfranchising a large number of people, new forms of identification, must be available to all, before they are required.
It is a total nonsense that carrying a card, takes away our liberty, it will make us safer.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
I'm all for voting ID cards and believe we should have had them long ago. Personally I think voting fraud is rife especially in big cities and think postal votes an absolute no-no.
“If I meet someone in the street I introduce myself, if they say “prove it” I say “this isn’t wartime, sunshine”. What an odd thing to say!
So much information is known about us by government agencies and other institutions there is now quite a likelihood that we’ll have no more censuses. I would welcome having a card with key data on it, as exists in France, so that if, for example, I moved house I could prove to the bank, the new doctor’s surgery and anyone else who needed to know I am who I claim to be. If I was in an accident I could be identified in an instant, if I voted fraud would be nigh impossible.
I have been looking up the Electoral Commission’s report on fraud. I found it very interesting
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data/2019-electoral-fraud-data
In 2019 there were 142 reported instances of suspicious voting. 109 were dismissed because there was no or insufficient evidence. 27 cases were “locally resolved” and 6 resulted in legal proceedings.
In the general election that year 32.1 million people voted. I’ll guess about 10 million more voted in that year’s local, mayoral, European and by elections. So, 1 vote in every 300,000 has a hint of suspicion, 1 in 1.3 million is definitely suspicious and 1 in 7 million leads to legal action. Not a pressing problem, is it? Or is there a wider, undiscovered, issue of fraud which we’re unable to discover using the voting practices currently in place? One thing I do know, wouldn’t Americans love an electoral process comparatively so untainted?
A very valid point about young people needing ID for various purposes and them accepting that fact. It's clearly in their immediate interest to do so. Walk around our town any lunch time and you will see hundreds of people walking around with uni or work ID round their necks. What's the difference between that and a general ID card?
I remember one of my students telling me that her daughter had a mental disability so her father always voted for her.
If a person goes into a booth, their vote is their own. They can safely lie to whoever in their household would steal their vote.
In some postal voting households, the father/ husband ( usually) is able to consider the entire family's votes his own .
In every major shopping centre too.
The 'because we're free' argument really doesn't stand up.
How can say there isn't voter fraud? How do you know that?
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
Beside all that, those that would like to interfere with our electoral system don't need to actually commit fraud. They can use sophisticated ways of convincing folk to vote against their own interests instead 😉