Can I ask what things that 'are wrong' do you think men and boys are not aware of?
Consent is clearly still a very muddy subject for a lot of people. And it is complex- how drunk does a girl have to be before a guy is actually taking advantage? Every situation will be different and we give very confusing messages to young people about how to navigate it, such that a lot of situations which objectively are wrong, don't, subjectively, appear to be to the kid thinking he's about to get lucky.Â
Then there's street harassment- so, so many people would put this down to 'just a bit of fun' or 'it's a compliment'. Uninvited sexual attention isn't fun, but I honestly don't think many of the men doing it actually think they're doing anything 'wrong', just a bit naughty maybe.Â
A group of boys in a changing room talking about girls they fancy- when does the conversation become wrong?Â
We talk as though all these things are black and white and simple but they're not- young people do need to be educated (not just told!) about respect and consent, with a chance to discuss what it actually means to them in their lives.
Seriously, I am leaving it there now. Further reading, if anyone wants to learn more about the things we do and don't discuss about this stuff, can be found at the Everyday Sexism website (and many others I'm sure).
Does anyone not know today that no means no? That has to be 16+ anyway eh? So is 'adult'. I must admit I find consent weird coming from a long term marriage - as there must have been many times when one of us didn't really fancy sex, but we went ahead anyway thinking you're making the other person happy. Always a bit counter productive anyway as it doesn't actually enhance the experience does it? Isn't that what people do in relationships - you compromise and sometimes put the other person first? I don't think I'd last in a relationship again - as I never asked a woman in my life about physical contact - and maybe I read it all wrong and acted totally inappropriately - but it was about reading signs. And that isn't a one way thing is it? Women try to read signs from men as much as mean try to read signs from women.
The second paragraph - totally. Some men like to be the alpha male - the 'Trump' comments said it all. The 'women love it when I do' type comment to show how attractive they are to women. I'm still not sure that you can educate that out. I know this will sound weird, but my son and son-in-law do a similar thing - we go for a walk, they both (presumably subconsciously) vie to lead the 'pack' and walk faster and faster to be the one in front (and the dogs try to outdo them!). And that urge is about power - power meant more sex - the pack leader and the females. You see it today with power=money and rich men with young attractive women.
Don't women talk about boys they fancy as well? Don't they say stuff about body shape, muscles, height, strength in men/boys? Isn't that just as wrong then? My wife was a travel rep in Italy in the 70s and she used to go out 'willy' watching. Is that so abnormal - and don't women talk about it? Was my wife objectivising men or just having a laugh with her friends?
That's the problem with this. We talk about man (Shaun) as if he wasn't an animal that is the product of a million years of evolution. Desmond Morris did the book years back - and there was a very humorous video shown on the TV where they showed where people look as a stranger enters the room. How the eyes automatically move to certain parts of the body. The people weren't aware that they were doing it (or at least that's what they said to the researcher!).
How do you take normal sexual behaviour and eradicate abnormal (and by that I mean non-consensual) behaviour. It's an absolute minefield.
None of this gets around what occurs though does it? Some poor woman lost her life in the most horrific circumstances because of some violent ar**hole of a thug. How can you ever stop it - I'm not sure you can - and you can never stop bad people having any job - I bet there are immoral judges - as well as fraudster bankers, sociopathic cops... all you can do is to try to spot the signs and weed them out before they do too much damage.
There was a women's studies lecturer at the University my mum worked at as an administrator. They had a conversation about objectivisation on TV and adverts. The lecturer made the point that you never see men being objectivised on TV, not one. My mum pointed out the advertising on ITV1 at that time and there was a lot of objectivisation of men. The classic one was the diet coke ad where smartly dressed women came together at a certain time and place to watch and leer at a muscular, attractive male laborer taking off his top to drink the cola. I think another had a similar male pouring water over himself. I remember that all but 1 ad was about objectivising or ridiculing men at that time.
Anyway the lecturer kept quiet about that around my mum after being corrected. As a background my mum was forward thinking with regards to many things considering when she came from. She was one of the first open university graduates while working and juggling two young kids. A social science graduate back when women in education was unusual. A mature student, working with keeping a house and bringing up children. OU put her name forward as a good example of what OU could benefit for a guardian article about the new OU as they saw her as a good role model for prospective OU students. She's not daft and completely aware of these issues. She does not suffer fools who won't accept evidence that didn't fit their viewpoints,Â
I know I know I know I said I was leaving this. But the treatment of Christie was promoted by the tabloids (probably mostly men!) and had a distinctly racial undertone. It was nasty. He's spoken about it more recently and how it affected him when he should have been enjoying his achievements.
I know I know I know I said I was leaving this. But the treatment of Christie was promoted by the tabloids (probably mostly men!) and had a distinctly racial undertone. It was nasty. He's spoken about it more recently and how it affected him when he should have been enjoying his achievements.
Disappointing that the women's studies lecturer wasn't able to give a more nuanced view. Men are objectified in the media. And sometimes by women amongst themselves, although I haven't experienced much of that to be honest. But in the context of the gender dynamics we're talking about, there's a huge difference between 'mmm hunky muscles' (or even 'wow, her legs go on for miles') and 'yeah, I'd do her', which is the tone of comment that is too often dismissed as 'banter'.
Disappointing that the women's studies lecturer wasn't able to give a more nuanced view. Men are objectified in the media. And sometimes by women amongst themselves, although I haven't experienced much of that to be honest. But in the context of the gender dynamics we're talking about, there's a huge difference between 'mmm hunky muscles' (or even 'wow, her legs go on for miles') and 'yeah, I'd do her', which is the tone of comment that is too often dismissed as 'banter'.
I'm not sure it was his " muscles " which were being focused upon.
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Anyway the lecturer kept quiet about that around my mum after being corrected. As a background my mum was forward thinking with regards to many things considering when she came from. She was one of the first open university graduates while working and juggling two young kids. A social science graduate back when women in education was unusual. A mature student, working with keeping a house and bringing up children. OU put her name forward as a good example of what OU could benefit for a guardian article about the new OU as they saw her as a good role model for prospective OU students. She's not daft and completely aware of these issues. She does not suffer fools who won't accept evidence that didn't fit their viewpoints,Â