Totally - I wore aftershave (when I did wear aftershave and before it gave me migraines) because I wanted to appear (smell) attractive to women - I didn't care about what blokes thought. But there's a line isn't there? What is acceptable and what is attractive - ie onesies in the supermarket is NOT acceptable no matter what some people think...not at any time...not on adults...not on kids...
I wore suits at work when customers were in, as the company wanted me to appear professional (I wore jeans and t-shirts most other times). But no aftershave at work. My hair ditto. I kept it 'neat' - because in those days long hair was associated with hippies and short hair skinheads. So there's the chameleon affect - totally. I had an office veneer (pressed shirts, ties, creases in trousers, polished shoes) and an attractive veneer (well, attractive in my eyes - which means nothing eh? as attractiveness is in the eyes of the beholder). They at times overlapped - but not that much. Maybe at weddings where I'd mix suit with aftershave! I could be wacky and off the wall at times,
I would say it's part of a peacock thing - but I don't think that's the case as it seems that through history, the peacock has switched from male to female and back again within humans. But maybe the period of my growing up the female has been the peacock (possibly due to the lack of males after two major world wars) and it's now changing to the male or to maybe to both?
So I still think my wife had a subconscious drive to appear 'attractive' - and I think that is probably 'true' of that generation and a couple before.
Not sure what she would have made of the lockdown - maybe she wouldn't have worn lippy for a couple of months - although she may have gone the other way and put it on every time she went in the garden!
@steveTu .., it’s not necessarily about being ‘attractive’ ...its about giving the right message and how other people regard/judge you. And yes, we are judged and do judge.
The signifiers on which the judgements are made change according to culture/class/age and many other things.
Sometimes for a woman to look respectable she needs to have ‘made an effort’ to conform to the norms ... otherwise she is regarded (usually by other women) as slatternly/wanton.
Being without makeup can imply natural = nakedness ... it’s bonkers but that is how the human brain works.
Further to my last post ... shortly after I was married in 1970 I was asked by an older woman when i was getting my long hair cut. I said that I wasn’t going to. She was horrified and said that long hair wasn’t suitable for a married woman as it was too ‘natural’ and implied ‘availability’.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Thats strange Dove because 2 religeous sects ,the women are not allowed to cut their hair. My 1st Husband was a bully/control freak, he wanted me to have my hair cut, it was the one thing I refused, and as soon as we got divorced, I had it cut, spikey on top, fringe, and shaved round the back!!!
I think people should wear clothes, hair colour, make-up, jewellery, whatever they like/makes them feel good/comfortable/glamorous/confident/add your own. Body adornment is hardly new, dates back to prehistoric times, is a natural part of self-expression and the desire to adorn is not gender-specific. Being influenced by fashion, trends or social norms is not gender specific either, never has been. Yes, certain norms are imposed in certain social situations - being forced to wear a suit to work never suited me. Frankly, I don’t care what others think of me or my adornment, but if others do, that’s okay. Chill, I say.
Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
The wearing of lippie, might be, because your lips have no moisture glands, they get dry very quickly.We went into Town last week, to the Bank, said to the old man "blow drying the hair, and a bit of makeup", yeah why not. Back in the 70s, one of the Sister said I was vain for wearing makeup, I told her, no its vanity to think you are so gorgeous you dont need it. I had really bad acne, and communial changing rooms, people used to make nasty comments about my skin, and the fact I weighed 7.5 ston,e yuck, arent you thin, you would never dream of saying to someone they were fat. I started in 1972, dont ever remember anyone wearing white coats, the consultants wore suits, but they never touched anyone or anything!!
In what way 'judge' - and how do you know how other people judge you when you never meet them?
Have you as a woman, ever judged another woman as slattenly/wanton for not wearing make-up - or is that one of those 'fear' old wives tales? Men never make passes type thing?
Who says - who are they that define the norms - what make a woman 'look' respectable? Isn't that simply a con and something that changes with time anyway? Isn't it something that we all enforce on ourselves? Men in suits=business...now, tech=jeans and t-shirts. Short/brushed hair and shaven = not lazy...now unbrushed hair and stubble = attractive? I'm no longer sure. Holes in jeans - attractive or so poor you can't afford new ones? Tattoos=attractive or something related to the navy/military/penal colonies?
lippy=attractive? or acceptable?
aftershave=attractive or acceptable?
perfume=...ditto
I think women tend to conflate the attraction side with the respectable/acceptable more. No? Maybe not...
Maybe it all got more confused since the wars when women entered the work place in much greater numbers - men dressed for men at work. Suit-business. Women don't/didn't have the same pre-defined rules made by 'them' to follow - so a set of rules evolved - and maybe the make-up then became confused with smart rather than attractive. And maybe it was still the peacock thing and with a lack of men, women wanted to conflate the attractive with the acceptable?
The NICE guidelines say that all clinical staff should be "bare below the elbow", ie, no long sleeves, rings, bracelets or wristwatches. This promotes effective handwashing. Long dangling ties are also discouraged: bow tie or no tie is better.
If I were on Desert Island Discs, my luxury item would a lifetime supply of lip balm. I keep a pot in the bathroom and another by the front door, can't go out or go to bed without it. And with all that sun and salt-laden breezes, my mouth would fray at the edges.
1. We all ‘judge’ ie form an opinion based on what we see. It’s what humans do.
2. I’m not of the generation of women who read ‘natural’ as wanton. I was a Hippie chick 😉 bare feet, long hair worn loose and bra burning on the bonfire. But my mother’s generation saw ‘natural’ as wrong (think of the story of the Garden of Eden).
Yes ... the norms differ with culture and change with time ... (see previous para)
It’s long been accepted in the world of fashion that women dress for other women, not to attract men.
The clothes and makeup worn by fashion models is very different to that worn by “glamour“ models.
As I said ... Ways of Seeing is an interesting introduction to the subject.
😊
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
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Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Further to my last post ... shortly after I was married in 1970 I was asked by an older woman when
i was getting my long hair cut. I said that I wasn’t going to. She was horrified and said that long hair wasn’t suitable for a married woman as it was too ‘natural’ and implied ‘availability’.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
If I were on Desert Island Discs, my luxury item would a lifetime supply of lip balm. I keep a pot in the bathroom and another by the front door, can't go out or go to bed without it. And with all that sun and salt-laden breezes, my mouth would fray at the edges.
1. We all ‘judge’ ie form an opinion based on what we see. It’s what humans do.
It’s long been accepted in the world of fashion that women dress for other women, not to attract men.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.