The danger with all these things is scope creep. Are we moving to a world where a patient going into hospital or someone moving into a care home has to have a mandatory jab ?
If we mandate that a nurse has to be vaccinated can that nurse then refuse to treat an unvaccinated patient, the employer has a duty of care as well.
Not sure I would compare the flu to Covid @steveTu. Different league of infection and outcome.
I'm not comparing scale, just reason for being vaccinated.
Does this follow:
1) I have a vaccine that protects me and others from me
2) With the vaccine I am not as susceptible to contract the disease or shedding it
3) The vaccine has no obvious bad side effects - so no physical reason for me not to take it
3) Irrespective of the number of lives affected it makes sense for me to be vaccinated
Isn't that the argument? The numbers are largely irrelevant aren't they? If having ANY vaccine saves others, then shouldn't that vaccine be taken?
Flu, covid, pneumonia, hep b...does it matter? Isn't the reason for being vaccinated the same - and the same for the argument for the vaccine being mandatory in some cases? What is the difference in the argument? Punkdoc says scale and efficacy of vaccine - but if by being flu vaccinated 1..10..100.1000 fewer people die, isn't the moral decision the same as Covid? As dov says its the social responsibility isn't it?
But some people have made the decision to not be vaccinated. Seems odd to me, but I drink, my dad smoked, some people take drugs, some people like Oasis - life is full of oddities eh?
The slippery slope argument is somewhat worthless as it can be applied to almost any decision. "I have to have a license to drive! What's next, a license for operating a lawn mower".
Seems to me this is a fairly pragmatic decision. Just as us NHS employees have to show proof of vaccination for a bunch of other diseases, so too must we now for COVID. Makes perfect sense given how astonishingly infectious it is.
Why don't we apply the same to flu? As people have stated: much less infectious, less deadly, less asymptomatic risk. So on balance keeping the those NHS staff who won't have the flu vaccine was deemed preferable to running a fully vaccinated understaffed system. They do try very hard to encourage NHS staff to get flu vaccinated, and I'm not sure we won't see mandatory flu vaccines in the future. Also doesn't strike me as a great imposition in a healthcare job.
All jobs have risks. Construction accidents, radiation exposure, chemical exposure, physical wear and tear. Vaccines are pretty low on the list.
There are still more deaths in ICU amongst the unvaccinated, but a rising number in the double vaccinated, because immunity is waning.
And also because uptake is high the number of unvaccinated is small, particularly amongst vulnerable groups. We should expect to see the distribution shift due to this as well, given the vaccine isn't perfect.
@steveTu, surely you don't expect me to second guess the government.
If I was still in charge of an ICU and was given the power, I would insist that all staff were vaccinated, and this is the line that is being taken by most who are acting as advisers at the moment. I think I would be within my rights to refuse to work with non vaccinated colleagues, they would be putting both my patients and myself at increased risk.
How can you lie there and think of England When you don't even know who's in the team
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Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
If we mandate that a nurse has to be vaccinated can that nurse then refuse to treat an unvaccinated patient, the employer has a duty of care as well.
For note I’m not anti vax.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
And also because uptake is high the number of unvaccinated is small, particularly amongst vulnerable groups. We should expect to see the distribution shift due to this as well, given the vaccine isn't perfect.
If I was still in charge of an ICU and was given the power, I would insist that all staff were vaccinated, and this is the line that is being taken by most who are acting as advisers at the moment.
I think I would be within my rights to refuse to work with non vaccinated colleagues, they would be putting both my patients and myself at increased risk.
When you don't even know who's in the team
S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border