I have black spot appearing on one or two of mine which I was surprised to see so early in the season, especially when it's been dry. I'm not so convinced about the hard water theory and roses, our water's pretty hard but the roses don't seem to mind and do well. I think I'm about to lose one of my favourites, which I'm sad about, it just doesn't look very healthy this year, very pale leaves and droopy. It was called Golden Tribute, a 'freebie' from a magazine about 10 years or so and was very much like a DA rose. I've had the pleasure of it though, I know they don't last for ever.
My roses are usually free from black spot until after the first flush of flowers, then the roses never look so good. I had put it down to weather conditions in SW France.
That rose day at East Ruston is quite pricey. I will be in Norfolk then but we will have friends staying with us on that day. I love the Old Vicarage Garden.
Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
Out of interest, I did a little research on the issue of hard water. The ‘locking out’ effect that Marlorena’s acquaintance spoke of has been scientifically proven. So here’s the science bit:
How roses (and other plants) respond to hard tap water varies according to a complex series of factors, the general geological characteristics of your area, the specific mineral composition of the groundwater source and the related alkalinity of your soil, the amount of natural rainfall and thus the frequency of additional watering from the tap required and if and how your local authority treats the water. Because of these complex factors and interactions, the negative effects are observed rapidly in some areas but in others it is much slower and incremental. So whilst Marlorena, the two Lizzies and me may all have hard water, the degree of impact on rose growth will differ.
Here’s a small extract from an American study of the effects of hard water on plant growth:
Additionally, if iron has been locked out by high calcium and magnesium in your water, as busy-lizzie mentioned earlier, the plant’s ability to produce chlorophyll is affected, hence chlorosis and the need for an application of sequestered iron.
What I didn’t know previously (apart from most of the above!) is that roses grow best in neutral to slightly acid conditions. I knew they grow fine in clay soil, but didn’t realise the cumulative effect of my soil’s alkalinity combined with my hard well water.
Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
Thanks @Nollie I found that really interesting and confirmed what I believed to be the case although I wasn't aware that you could get different results in different parts of the country depending on how their hard water has been treated... so that's good to know..
As that was an American study, there is one point I would amend and that's the final paragraph about roses grow best in neutral to acid conditions... that is true generally, but in America we should understand they grow so many of their roses on own roots, not grafted... own root roses are very popular in many areas of the States.. that means they are especially sensitive to soil conditions...
Here in Europe most of our roses are budded onto rootstocks, which are lime tolerant.. this means we can grow any rose certainly in UK on any soil, even chalk, and it won't matter too much... take a lime sensitive rose like 'Reine des Violettes'... this will not grow own root on alkaline soils without becoming chlorotic... with a rootstock it will grow even on soils overlaying chalk..
However, even so, excessively hard tap water [I read somewhere mine is the hardest in the country]... still produces a reaction in my experience with the grafted roses, not as bad as own root, but it's noticeable... which is why lowering the ph of my water is advisable certainly for me..
I'll show a photo I just took of a clematis which I have used the hose pipe on, without any amendments... it's dreadful...
Thank you for that clarification regarding own root and roses grafted onto lime-tolerant root stock, Marlorena, set my mind at rest, but I shall still be using the tea from now on.
My water is also ridiculously hard, it comes from a mountain spring above me, filtered through limestone. My domestic appliances suffer like yours, so we use a spray vinegar on the toilet bowls on a daily basis and weekly on the cistern and shower heads, water softeners in the washing machine etc., the only way to keep on top of the limescale which seems to breed overnight. How long our new boiler will last is another matter!
Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
Our boiler lasted only 10 years before getting clogged up, so we decided on a new one which now has a fancy filter attachment which is cleaned annually at service time... the amount of limescale removers I have is quite industrial... I must consider spray vinegar though, I don't think I've got that one..
Your water must taste nice coming filtered from a mountain spring? I rather like the sound of that..
The point about lack of rainfall is also valid because I'm probably drier than where Lizzie is in Bath, although I don't think they get that much more, but they are out west and I'm in the east... I think rainwater is ph 5.6 if I recall correctly.. so it acidifies as it pours... and I'm getting desperate for some right now, although can't complain about this sunny and warm weather... and roses need that too.. !
We have hard water as well. However we use Fernox lime scale preventer. You basically hang these pellets in your water tank and the carbonates precipitates out to the bottom of your tank. Needs replacing every 6 months and is 20 pounds a pop. After using it for 3 years I now have 1-2 inches of precipitates in the tank but no buildup on appliances so a small inconvenience. I’ll remove this may be in another 2 years. In case anyone in reliant on hard tap water this may be a solution.
They actually bottle and sell the same mineral water that fills my well, Marlorena. Still murders the coffee machine tho, we put it through a britta filter first, which helps a bit.
@Alchemist, I must investigate that. Our plumbers tried to sell us a vastly expensive limescale filtering/water softening system that uses sodium. Fine for bathing and clothes washing, but not so good for plants or drinking water. As the only practical place to install it was at the well, this would have meant treating the whole water supply so it was not cost-effective or useful for us.
Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
I don't have a water tank as Alchemist does, just one of those combi boilers... they say hard water is healthier for you than soft, so maybe that's a good trade off..
Posts
My roses are usually free from black spot until after the first flush of flowers, then the roses never look so good. I had put it down to weather conditions in SW France.
That rose day at East Ruston is quite pricey. I will be in Norfolk then but we will have friends staying with us on that day. I love the Old Vicarage Garden.
How roses (and other plants) respond to hard tap water varies according to a complex series of factors, the general geological characteristics of your area, the specific mineral composition of the groundwater source and the related alkalinity of your soil, the amount of natural rainfall and thus the frequency of additional watering from the tap required and if and how your local authority treats the water. Because of these complex factors and interactions, the negative effects are observed rapidly in some areas but in others it is much slower and incremental. So whilst Marlorena, the two Lizzies and me may all have hard water, the degree of impact on rose growth will differ.
Here’s a small extract from an American study of the effects of hard water on plant growth:
Additionally, if iron has been locked out by high calcium and magnesium in your water, as busy-lizzie mentioned earlier, the plant’s ability to produce chlorophyll is affected, hence chlorosis and the need for an application of sequestered iron.
What I didn’t know previously (apart from most of the above!) is that roses grow best in neutral to slightly acid conditions. I knew they grow fine in clay soil, but didn’t realise the cumulative effect of my soil’s alkalinity combined with my hard well water.
As that was an American study, there is one point I would amend and that's the final paragraph about roses grow best in neutral to acid conditions... that is true generally, but in America we should understand they grow so many of their roses on own roots, not grafted... own root roses are very popular in many areas of the States.. that means they are especially sensitive to soil conditions...
Here in Europe most of our roses are budded onto rootstocks, which are lime tolerant.. this means we can grow any rose certainly in UK on any soil, even chalk, and it won't matter too much... take a lime sensitive rose like 'Reine des Violettes'... this will not grow own root on alkaline soils without becoming chlorotic... with a rootstock it will grow even on soils overlaying chalk..
However, even so, excessively hard tap water [I read somewhere mine is the hardest in the country]... still produces a reaction in my experience with the grafted roses, not as bad as own root, but it's noticeable... which is why lowering the ph of my water is advisable certainly for me..
I'll show a photo I just took of a clematis which I have used the hose pipe on, without any amendments... it's dreadful...
My water is also ridiculously hard, it comes from a mountain spring above me, filtered through limestone. My domestic appliances suffer like yours, so we use a spray vinegar on the toilet bowls on a daily basis and weekly on the cistern and shower heads, water softeners in the washing machine etc., the only way to keep on top of the limescale which seems to breed overnight. How long our new boiler will last is another matter!
Your water must taste nice coming filtered from a mountain spring? I rather like the sound of that..
The point about lack of rainfall is also valid because I'm probably drier than where Lizzie is in Bath, although I don't think they get that much more, but they are out west and I'm in the east... I think rainwater is ph 5.6 if I recall correctly.. so it acidifies as it pours... and I'm getting desperate for some right now, although can't complain about this sunny and warm weather... and roses need that too.. !
@Alchemist, I must investigate that. Our plumbers tried to sell us a vastly expensive limescale filtering/water softening system that uses sodium. Fine for bathing and clothes washing, but not so good for plants or drinking water. As the only practical place to install it was at the well, this would have meant treating the whole water supply so it was not cost-effective or useful for us.