Genuinely not trying to be contentious but I don't really understand the attraction of most old roses.
I can see that all those on here are beautiful, and I'm sure they smell glorious - but I want all that to be repeated throughout the summer on a reliably disease free plant. I thought most old roses had a single moment of glory and that many are prone to black spot etc. Isn't that why breeders have sought to 'improve' them?
For that reason I grow mainly modern shrub roses with just a couple of older varieties - Rosa Glauca, Buff Beauty and Roserie de l'hay. Glauca gives good form in the garden and provides good foliage and berry interest. The other 2 are healthy, repeat flowerers with good scent.
Would be interested to hear which other 'old' roses do a similar job.
This is a very good question which I am happy to answer. And more people are welcome to answer too, it is always interesting to hear why people decide to grow old roses.
Old roses are a big, very varied, group of several classes. The thread is called "old and classical" and I am going to assume this means mostly OGR (old garden roses). An old garden rose is defined as any rose belonging to a class which existed before the introduction of the first modern rose, La France, in 1867. This means it doesn't need to be old. An alba bred today would still be OGR. And 19th-century hybrid teas are modern roses. Most old roses lovers love other old roses too - roses like ramblers, older climbers, hybrids of wild roses and old hybrid teas. That's what I would call "classical" but not OGR.
Many OGR cultivars survived to modern times and that imo shows that these specific varieties have something to offer that modern roses don't have and that they are competitive even today.
To answer why I grow OGRs or why they are worth growing, I have to split this into classes.
Albas - They are good garden shrubs, able to grow in poor soils and less than optimal conditions and they can be neglected. They are a good substitute for any other once-blooming garden shrub. Hips in the autumn. Gallicas - This group has some roses with unique colours or unique colour patterns (stripes, blotches). They are also relatively easy to grow. Centifolias - I don't grow any at the moment but there are several that I find appealing. Mosses - Just the moss A rarity for enthusiasts. Damasks - Fragrance that's hard to beat. Most modern roses don't have traditional damask rose fragrance. Damask perpetual/Portlands - As above but they repeat in autumn. Chinas - Unique growth habit and look, and these roses repeat. They are also good for hot climates. Teas - HT-like but graceful blooms on much nicer shrubs. Loved in hot climates. Good repeat. Not so good in the UK though, with a couple of exceptions. Hybrid perpetual - A complicated class with many different roses. Bourbons - Probably the most grown OGRs, roses like 'Zephirine Drouhin', 'Louise Odier' or 'Madame Isaac Pereire' can't be easily replaced with a similar modern variety. Noisettes - A lot of useful roses in this class, mostly climbers. Good climbers for warm climates. Hybrid musks - Technically not OGRs. My favorite class of roses, very useful garden shrubs with good repeat and mostly good disease resistance. Polyanthas - similar to hybrid musks. Technically modern roses.
One thing that is typical for all old roses is their value going beyond just pretty flowers. Modern HTs were bred only for flowers, they were ugly as plants and disease-ridden. Floribundas were soul-less bedding roses. This really only changed with DA roses. They brought a revolution into rose growing and these days, we want it all - nice plant shape/growth habit, disease resistance and beautiful fragrant blooms multiple times per year. Most modern roses can't do all of that. Many are primadonnas who require good soil and a lot of care. Really good roses that tick most of these boxes are still very rare. And all roses are in arms race with fungal diseases. With more people unwilling to spray, disease resistance is becoming much more important than it used to be. Many old roses still tick more of these boxes than modern roses.
Also, here in the UK, we have a very gardening-friendly climate. Once-blooming old roses may seem obsolete here but they are very popular in climates with cold winters because their hardiness is much greater than most modern roses. Similarly, some old roses (Chinas, teas, noisettes, and some bourbons) are winners in dry and hot climates.
Why I personally grow non-repeating OGRs? Honestly, I wouldn't grow them if I only could have 5 or 10 roses. But if I had a bigger garden, I would grow a lot of them. They are simply a good balance of beauty vs care needed. Also, having close to 50 roses means that I can pick roses for various qualities. They don't have to be (can't be, actually) all perfect.
I only grow a few roses because the conditions here aren't ideal and I have limited space. I think the only ones that fit into this thread are three R. glauca that I grew from seed, and The Fairy which is apparently a shrub rose introduced in 1932 - does that count as old?
Doncaster, South Yorkshire. Soil type: sandy, well-drained
Thank you @edhelka for a very good summing up. You've given the reason why I grow several old roses in my garden in Dordogne. The winters are cold and the summers are hot and dry. Also the scent, can't be beaten.
There are some lovely modern French roses, covered in blooms that can stand the climate, but they have no scent.
Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
Thank you @edhelka - that was an excellent summary of the different types of roses and the pros and cons.
I have a reasonable sized garden but, because we go away a lot, I have to be careful with what and how much I plant (I really MUST stop planting perennials which need cutting back at the end of June!!) and shrubs which demand less attention have to form the backbone of the garden.
I have about 15 roses but because we're often away when the initial 'big flush' is happening, I need ones which will repeat throughout the rest of the summer. I don't see the point in roses with no perfume and also need them to be reasonably healthy because I rarely use pesticides or fungicides (can't remember the last time I did). Those are the main reasons the DA modern shrubs are so appealing.
Is there one medium size 'old rose' which fits that brief that you would recommend for a garden with much improved clay soil which gets very hot and dry (for the UK) in summer? All flower forms and colours considered!
Heaven is ... sitting in the garden with a G&T and a cat while watching the sun go down
@Topbird 'Souvenir de st. Anne's' does well for me in wet North Wales (no spray garden). Some blackspot but not worse than modern roses and always outgrows it. It flowers almost continually and the fragrance is quite unique and very good. If you have hot and dry summers, you could consider "upgrading" it to 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' (SdaA is a sport of SdlM, so they are genetically nearly identical), this rose balls in wet weather a lot, so I wouldn't risk it here but could work for you. 'Louise Odier' would probably work too. I don't grow it, so this is a second-hand recommendation. Extremely fragrant and repeating well. If you like 'Buff Beauty', you could try other hybrid musks. 'Felicia' fits your requirements.
Like @Topbird I like my roses to have perfume and repeat flower but I did love my Kiftsgate rambler in Belgium and have brought one of its babies to plant here. It's doing very well. I've also inherited a Veilchenblau in part of our hedge - the smarter bit near the gates - and an unknown, unperfumed deep red rambler next to the gate wall.
I've been given a cutting of Complicata so it's good to know that @Busy-Lizzie rates it. I've just potted it on so I can keep an eye on it and 3 other new, modern roses before I decide where they will be planted. I can feel a new bed coming on but don't tell OH.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
Cornelia has done better for me than Felicia but she isn't very compact, sprawls along the fence. I have Louise Odier and Souvenir de Malmaison. The both survived the drought and the hailstone tornado last year and being eaten by deer when we were away, but they had a bit of black spot this year.
Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
I was still typing when you posted @Obelixx. I had Complicata at my old house, bought after seeing it at David Austins. The single flowers are so pretty and it was covered in them. But it doesn't repeat.
Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
Posts
Old roses are a big, very varied, group of several classes. The thread is called "old and classical" and I am going to assume this means mostly OGR (old garden roses).
An old garden rose is defined as any rose belonging to a class which existed before the introduction of the first modern rose, La France, in 1867.
This means it doesn't need to be old. An alba bred today would still be OGR. And 19th-century hybrid teas are modern roses.
Most old roses lovers love other old roses too - roses like ramblers, older climbers, hybrids of wild roses and old hybrid teas. That's what I would call "classical" but not OGR.
Many OGR cultivars survived to modern times and that imo shows that these specific varieties have something to offer that modern roses don't have and that they are competitive even today.
To answer why I grow OGRs or why they are worth growing, I have to split this into classes.
Albas - They are good garden shrubs, able to grow in poor soils and less than optimal conditions and they can be neglected. They are a good substitute for any other once-blooming garden shrub. Hips in the autumn.
Gallicas - This group has some roses with unique colours or unique colour patterns (stripes, blotches). They are also relatively easy to grow.
Centifolias - I don't grow any at the moment but there are several that I find appealing.
Mosses - Just the moss
Damasks - Fragrance that's hard to beat. Most modern roses don't have traditional damask rose fragrance.
Damask perpetual/Portlands - As above but they repeat in autumn.
Chinas - Unique growth habit and look, and these roses repeat. They are also good for hot climates.
Teas - HT-like but graceful blooms on much nicer shrubs. Loved in hot climates. Good repeat. Not so good in the UK though, with a couple of exceptions.
Hybrid perpetual - A complicated class with many different roses.
Bourbons - Probably the most grown OGRs, roses like 'Zephirine Drouhin', 'Louise Odier' or 'Madame Isaac Pereire' can't be easily replaced with a similar modern variety.
Noisettes - A lot of useful roses in this class, mostly climbers. Good climbers for warm climates.
Hybrid musks - Technically not OGRs. My favorite class of roses, very useful garden shrubs with good repeat and mostly good disease resistance.
Polyanthas - similar to hybrid musks. Technically modern roses.
One thing that is typical for all old roses is their value going beyond just pretty flowers.
Modern HTs were bred only for flowers, they were ugly as plants and disease-ridden. Floribundas were soul-less bedding roses.
This really only changed with DA roses. They brought a revolution into rose growing and these days, we want it all - nice plant shape/growth habit, disease resistance and beautiful fragrant blooms multiple times per year.
Most modern roses can't do all of that. Many are primadonnas who require good soil and a lot of care. Really good roses that tick most of these boxes are still very rare.
And all roses are in arms race with fungal diseases. With more people unwilling to spray, disease resistance is becoming much more important than it used to be.
Many old roses still tick more of these boxes than modern roses.
Also, here in the UK, we have a very gardening-friendly climate. Once-blooming old roses may seem obsolete here but they are very popular in climates with cold winters because their hardiness is much greater than most modern roses.
Similarly, some old roses (Chinas, teas, noisettes, and some bourbons) are winners in dry and hot climates.
Why I personally grow non-repeating OGRs? Honestly, I wouldn't grow them if I only could have 5 or 10 roses. But if I had a bigger garden, I would grow a lot of them. They are simply a good balance of beauty vs care needed.
Also, having close to 50 roses means that I can pick roses for various qualities. They don't have to be (can't be, actually) all perfect.
There are some lovely modern French roses, covered in blooms that can stand the climate, but they have no scent.
I have a reasonable sized garden but, because we go away a lot, I have to be careful with what and how much I plant (I really MUST stop planting perennials which need cutting back at the end of June!!) and shrubs which demand less attention have to form the backbone of the garden.
I have about 15 roses but because we're often away when the initial 'big flush' is happening, I need ones which will repeat throughout the rest of the summer. I don't see the point in roses with no perfume and also need them to be reasonably healthy because I rarely use pesticides or fungicides (can't remember the last time I did). Those are the main reasons the DA modern shrubs are so appealing.
Is there one medium size 'old rose' which fits that brief that you would recommend for a garden with much improved clay soil which gets very hot and dry (for the UK) in summer? All flower forms and colours considered!
'Souvenir de st. Anne's' does well for me in wet North Wales (no spray garden). Some blackspot but not worse than modern roses and always outgrows it. It flowers almost continually and the fragrance is quite unique and very good.
If you have hot and dry summers, you could consider "upgrading" it to 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' (SdaA is a sport of SdlM, so they are genetically nearly identical), this rose balls in wet weather a lot, so I wouldn't risk it here but could work for you.
'Louise Odier' would probably work too. I don't grow it, so this is a second-hand recommendation. Extremely fragrant and repeating well.
If you like 'Buff Beauty', you could try other hybrid musks. 'Felicia' fits your requirements.
I've been given a cutting of Complicata so it's good to know that @Busy-Lizzie rates it. I've just potted it on so I can keep an eye on it and 3 other new, modern roses before I decide where they will be planted. I can feel a new bed coming on but don't tell OH.