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Euonymus cats and Toxic neighbour

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  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    cat issues are seen as political suicide

    That's it. If we get change on duty of care for cats, it won't be lead by the RSPB or the govt.

    I find it odd that species depletion and extinction threat seems to count for so little. UK farmland bird numbers have halved in the last 50 years. Woodland birds have dropped by a quarter. These are enormous numbers - millions of birds lost.  But people shrug, like it's nothing and will change nothing.


  • PosyPosy Posts: 3,601
    To be fair, woodland and farmland birds are little affected by urban cats. Garden birds are predated although I have heard RSPB people say that garden birds and cats have existed together for so long that it isn't a real problem. I cannot verify this assessment, I simply repeat it.

    It is almost impossible to get accurate figures on this subject. I'm reminded of the hedgehog issue. Where I live it is well accepted that the burgeoning population of badgers have killed all the hedgehogs. But you can't say this aloud. Badgers are our friends. Some of my neighbours feed them.

    Life's complicated. I have cats. I also have frogs, toads, newts, lizards, bats, slow worms, grass snakes, birds and God alone knows how many voles, field mice and rats. There seem to be more each year, not fewer. I can't work it out.
  • wild edgeswild edges Posts: 10,497
    Posy said:
    To be fair, woodland and farmland birds are little affected by urban cats. Garden birds are predated although I have heard RSPB people say that garden birds and cats have existed together for so long that it isn't a real problem. I cannot verify this assessment, I simply repeat it.
    Birds are well adapted to avoid predators but whether we should accept that cats should take the place of natural predators is another matter. If cats kill 270 million animals a year then it's likely that the natural ecosystem is missing somewhere in the region of  3-400,000 predators to compensate. We say that getting rid of cats will prevent these prey animal deaths but in reality it will just cause a boom in natural predators to take up the slack. Cats are very efficient killers compared to some other animals though, especially in urban areas, so I'd expect some recovery. Corvids are also still widely persecuted to protect nesting birds but cats are allowed to kill with immunity. In a way the cat predation in urban areas puts predator pressure on farmland and woodland species where other the other predators need to go looking for the sick and weak animals that have been easy prey for cats in towns.
    It would never be as simple as reducing cat predation to save the ecosystem but I think it's an important part of the overall strategy that's needed.

    If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    edited August 2022
    My understanding of the situation re hedgehogs and badgers is thus ...

    For various reasons (garden fences, slug pellets, traffic, lack of habitat etc) hedgehog numbers are declining rapidly.  Therefore when badgers kill hedgehogs this is bad news.

    If there were as many hedgehogs as there used to be/could be if the things that have gone wrong were put right, it is likely that badgers killing some hedgehogs would be acceptable ... just as barn owls killing voles is regarded as the natural way of things.  

    What if voles were as scarce as hedgehogs .........?

    We have got to get the habitat right for our wildlife ... 


    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited August 2022
    10000 years of ecological balance between hedgehogs and badgers and then all of a sudden they became a major hedgehog predator.


    In a majorly depleted landscape, it does seem so now - comparably - along with humans, cars, green space degredation. The UK is in nothing like ecological balance. It doesn't make sense of target badgers, but to attempt to support landscapes that supports both species.


  • PosyPosy Posts: 3,601
    I'm  not even going to comment on the degree to which I trust Conservative promises but badgers are another complex issue. Where I live - in the country - there was a regrettably lively interest in badger baiting.  (Horrible, I know) Then steps were taken to reduce this pass time. Badgers were very thin on the ground. It was really exciting to spot one out late at night. These days, they are two a penny. You can't step outside without seeing and hearing them.

    Hedgehogs were not so common. It was an even bigger treat to spot one. But its 20 years since I've seen one.

    What's the answer? Not more baiting, Heaven knows. But humans have upset the natural balance of wildlife and there are no easy answers to restoring some order. Getting rid of any animal, cats, badgers, chip-stealing seagulls, corvids?  It's not as easy as that.
  • wild edgeswild edges Posts: 10,497
    It's very true. If, by some miracle, all cats were kept indoors from now on I would expect to see an impact on insect numbers due to the bird population being higher. It would be very hard to measure and may actually be of benefit to gardeners in some respects though.
    If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited August 2022
    Such is the nature of complexity.

    If farming land, wild land, wetlands and gardens are more supportive of wildlife (sans cats) in general it will inevitably boost both bird and insect numbers - as the rewilding projects show.
     - -
    It would be interesting to see on the wildland projects how the badger/fox/hedgehog triumvirate is doing, what the data over 20-30 years is showing. 
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    I believe there’s evidence to show that the decline in farmland birds has been followed by an increase in aphid problems and similar on agricultural crops … is that your understanding @wild edges?

    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





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