Try telling that to the Taliban ( and similar cultures to a degree ) - females can not only not be heard but they can't be seen outside either unless completely covered ( except for a slit for their eyes ) and accompanied by a male relative. Employment possibilities are restricted as is education. That situation is far worse than anything, inappropriate or not, which takes place on a football field. Misbehaviour by fans, coaches and players is commonplace Often degrading for sure but not life threatening. At least women do have a voice here ( seriously listened to or not ) whereas other women risk their lives in speaking out for their common rights in some countries. I'm not in any sense saying that we should be grateful for small mercies but think about others who are condemned to live in a cage like atmosphere . That needs sorting before worrying overmuch about some pratt unable to keep his hands/lips in control.
I agree completely @philippasmith2 but would add that football is a universal sport now and the big competitions are seen by billions of people. Good, and bad, behaviour from the top will filter down far faster than from the ground up which is why this man's behaviour needs to be recognised and stopped.
It's the same with bullying and sexually inappropriate behavior by MPs of both sexes. It needs to be seen to be unacceptable and to have consequences. Sexism, racism, political and religious intolerance are all things that need to be consigned to the past and we may as well start at home and hope it spreads by example.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
I've been kissed unexpectedly by a female member of staff at work (well, four actually, but not all at the same time). All four knew I was married, and none of whom had asked for my consent. Did I mind? Well in the case of two, yes, but with the other two, I was flattered, and flustered. It DOES happen the other way around. I would never have asked, and yes, I told my wife about all four. She found it amusing. Did I take it any further? No way! It embarrassed me at the time. But to have taken it further, could have resulted in two of them being told to leave.
We’re they your seniors? Did your career depend on you not upsetting them? Was it a smacker full on the lips? Was it in the course of your working day or in a social situation?
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
@Obelixx yes you make a fair point about sport being viewed by billions but like the news and SMedia in general , so much is censored or "edited" in some countries which makes it difficult for their populace to grasp what is happening outside their "cage" and consequently leads to opinions/viewpoints which in many cases simply echoes their government's claptrap - they don't have an option. . North Korea is one which springs immediately to mind but there are others. If you consider that here in the UK ( Europe and the USA too ? ) - supposedly the "democratic" world with equality for all- we still have endless reports about how some men behave towards women as a whole, as well as the various other "isms". I'm not sure how long we should wait for change ? The filtering idea does not appear to be working so far but I'll admit that whilst it makes me furious, I'm not sure how best to tackle the problem. I'd dearly like to know what happens in 30 years time re this, climate change, etc. etc but I won't be here to find out
Back in the late 1980's I worked at a large engineering company in their IT department. The office was made up almost entirely of men with the exception of one young lady who did the admin work as well as acting as secretary to the department manager. I got on well with her and could laugh and joke with her despite my being about twice her age. One day I could see she was upset so quietly asked her what was wrong and her answer shocked me. "XXXXX just grabbed my tit, and I didn't know what to do" I asked why she didn't slap him and she said he had walked up behind her while she was sitting down and shoved his hand down her top then walked away as if nothing had happened. I said she should report it but she said that firstly nobody would believe her and secondly everybody would laugh about it. Sadly she was right. In a male dominated environment like that some men thought they could do what they liked, and could!
We’re they your seniors? Did your career depend on you not upsetting them? Was it a smacker full on the lips? Was it in the course of your working day or in a social situation?
@Dovefromabove They were not my seniors. My career did not depend on me not upsetting them. They were smackers full on the lips. All during the course of a working day.
Edited. One was my secretary of the time, and my wife reminds me that while she was amused, her response was that "if she does it again, I'll scratch her eyes out."
It's a lot less absolute than 'lie or truth' @steveTu He says it was a consensual kiss. He doesn't mean he had her permission in writing, or even that he said to her "I really want to kiss you, is that OK?" and she agreed. He means he interpreted her behaviour as favourable. She says she neither expected nor wanted what he did. So neither is lying and no one can 'prove' the intent of either - something he's probably counting on and he's probably also feeling aggrieved that his perfectly innocent intentions are being misinterpreted.
The principle is that a man in a position of authority should never take for granted any sort of physical contact with a woman who works for him. The way he behaved towards all the other women in the team makes me uncomfortable but they are either used to it or I'm uptight and English. Shaking hands, giving them a kiss on the cheek (or both, this being Europe), even holding their shoulders at arms length - these are normal social interactions that don't infringe personal space. Grabbing them round the waist, kissing their necks and patting their bums - all of which he was doing - are not, not to me. And I think he should either sincerely apologise or step down if he can't see why he should apologise.
It's not about that kiss, but what it represents. Watching him, and all that crotch grabbing and pointing during the game, I think he's a bully and in the habit of being overfamiliar, but that's me jumping to judgement on the basis of limited information.
I'm not sure I follow that as a rule in this day and age. Surely any physical contact should be kept to a minimum then - as who knows the sexual orientation of anyone? There is a complete video of the game from the BBC ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001pw4x/fifa-womens-world-cup-2023-final-england-v-spain ) - that shows the match (everything else seems now to focus on the Spanish Kiss) - I watched the game on the day and it was a typical celebration. All genders hugging each other. If you watch the BBC game video it's about 3:41:00 in. The Queen was hugging the players - it was NOT a line of polite handshakes - and IMO good job it wasn't - they had just won the World Cup and people were excited. Different officials, from a Queen down, hugging players.
That doesn't excuse Rubiales completely overstepping the mark, but like the initial image (IMO) appeared to show a man imposing himself (which is why I raised this initially) - when you see the whole thing in context, it doesn't stand out that way (well, to me it didn't) as everyone was hugging.
As for it being consensual, I thought he said that she had verbally consented and hence her comment about people putting words in her mouth.
To me, he was over the top, hence my initial post - but not as badly as 'that' photo implied (to me). BUT he said he had consent. The Spanish football federation seem to support his version, so presumably have something to back that up. I have no clue either way. All I see are the images and videos.
To me, he was over the top, hence my initial post - but not as badly as 'that' photo implied (to me). BUT he said he had consent. The Spanish football federation seem to support his version, so presumably have something to back that up. I have no clue either way. All I see are the images and videos.
As most of football is run by a bunch of dinosaurs who run football for their own benefit and enrichment, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to see anything wrong in what one of their own does. Like you @steveTu I don't know the full story on this event, but wouldn't be too keen to assume that backing of the football federation actually means one party or the other is right.
Posts
That situation is far worse than anything, inappropriate or not, which takes place on a football field. Misbehaviour by fans, coaches and players is commonplace Often degrading for sure but not life threatening.
At least women do have a voice here ( seriously listened to or not ) whereas other women risk their lives in speaking out for their common rights in some countries.
I'm not in any sense saying that we should be grateful for small mercies but think about others who are condemned to live in a cage like atmosphere . That needs sorting before worrying overmuch about some pratt unable to keep his hands/lips in control.
It's the same with bullying and sexually inappropriate behavior by MPs of both sexes. It needs to be seen to be unacceptable and to have consequences. Sexism, racism, political and religious intolerance are all things that need to be consigned to the past and we may as well start at home and hope it spreads by example.
Did I mind? Well in the case of two, yes, but with the other two, I was flattered, and flustered.
It DOES happen the other way around. I would never have asked, and yes, I told my wife about all four. She found it amusing.
Did I take it any further? No way! It embarrassed me at the time. But to have taken it further, could have resulted in two of them being told to leave.
Maybe it's different for a man.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
If you consider that here in the UK ( Europe and the USA too ? ) - supposedly the "democratic" world with equality for all- we still have endless reports about how some men behave towards women as a whole, as well as the various other "isms". I'm not sure how long we should wait for change ? The filtering idea does not appear to be working so far but I'll admit that whilst it makes me furious, I'm not sure how best to tackle the problem.
I'd dearly like to know what happens in 30 years time re this, climate change, etc. etc but I won't be here to find out
They were not my seniors. My career did not depend on me not upsetting them. They were smackers full on the lips. All during the course of a working day.
Edited. One was my secretary of the time, and my wife reminds me that while she was amused, her response was that "if she does it again, I'll scratch her eyes out."