But she hasn't said she doesn't care for him. She may have thought he was a friend before this happened. There are a few people I can think of that I like well enough but certainly wouldn't want to kiss them. As I said, there's a moment to think, 'hang on - what just happened?', but by then your feet are already reacting and it's not always possible to turn around, go back and deck him, even if that's what you realise you want to do.
ETA: just thinking about this a bit more; it's a masculine (not always male) trait to take what they want and the focus is always then on another person to resist. And if they don't then it's OK. It can subtle - in meetings its common for someone to state a position and wait for someone to challenge them - "it's like this" [looks around for disagreement]. It's the attitude of privilege - 'I am always going to state my opinion because I expect to be listened to'. Others, not only women but people who don't grow up with that expectation, will be more conciliatory from the outset - "I was wondering if", or "could we consider" and then expect a discussion rather than an argument. That guy, whatever his name is, took what he wanted and if she didn't react fast enough to deny that, she's deemed to have agreed to it. It ought to be that we don't have to be constantly on the defensive. It ought to be that he didn't just assume it was fine unless he got a punch on the nose. The same attitude runs all the way from the reason why men think women are bossy if they speak in a meeting for more than 30% of the time to the murder of Sarah Everard. It needs to be challenged
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Did you see the BBC breakfast news or listen to what has been said over the past couple of days on this? He says that it was consensual (implying he had consent), she says it wasn't. I saw a still image - no sound - and reacted to an image. The Spanish FA are now taking a legal pop - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66626410. I think I would just repeat - without knowing exactly what happened, just assuming (as I had) doesn't necessarily work
At least it's a slightly different debate than the usual "aftermath" crap that never fails to take place in the world of Sport. At best you could say the guy got over excited but as a champion football player, the woman could have reacted by giving him a swift well aimed kick - another winning goal. In her defence, she too was probably excited over the win and too tired to react quickly enough. Slightly different scenario to a business meeting tho the attitude towards women in general certainly needs a good shakeup. Horrendous in the 1960/70/80's and often not much better in the 2020's.
I didn't see what you posted @steveTu and no, I've just seen the main news items with the video, I've not been watching the commentary. It's depressingly common - this just happens to be a high profile instance caught on camera. When it happened to me, there was no one else there and there will be women like me who watch and recognise the situation if not the specific circumstances. There's a lot of reaction that will be about the principle rather than the particular.
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Possum has just started work in the communications department of one of the world's best leisure and sports boat builders. Her boss and several colleagues are women and she's already been warned about one of the photographers who displays inappropriate behaviour. Foreawrned is forearmed but why is such behaviour still tolerated?
When I changed career from bookseller to IT in '77 i was shocked to find the office canteen featured a weekly list of best looking ormost sexy female. This was in a 50 strong company with only a dozen women, 5 of whom were secretarial/receptionist staff.
I had a chat with a senior programmer and she and I took a tour of the offices, quietly lifting the back of the men's jackets and going yes/no/Hmmm as the mood took us. When asked what we were doing we said we were assessing the men's bums.
The list on the coffee machine never appeared again.
Neither behaviour would be tolerated now but misoginy and other prejudices are still all too common and not everyone on the receiving end has the power or support to protect or defend themselves without risking their jobs.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
I'm not trying to play down your experience, but you can't do that can you? Because something happens to you, it does not mean that the same thing happened (happens) to everyone. Isn't that why, in typical cases, only a judge knows the past record of an offender? Simply because you have to judge each case on its own merits - not on the pretext of x did this before so they did it again.
I did the same as you and judged the man on the photo and wondered why he was still in his job 10 minutes after the picture was published - BUT - the photo did not (IMO) represent then what I saw in the video. BUT a video may not also represent the 'truth' - so the impression that gives - to me - may be as false as the photo was (to me).
If this does become legal - then the facts should be known and judgement made on the facts not on an extract of an event - as any snapshot can be seen in any light (do you remember the Milliband bacon sandwich? - I wonder how many frames the photographer had to extract that one). If the man is lying and also then drags the woman through a court case out of some stupid form of machismo, then he should have the book thrown at him.
What swings my opinion in favour of the woman's version is the video from the dressing room where she says she certainly didn't want the kiss. That was presumably recorded long before the proverbial hit the fan.
It's a lot less absolute than 'lie or truth' @steveTu He says it was a consensual kiss. He doesn't mean he had her permission in writing, or even that he said to her "I really want to kiss you, is that OK?" and she agreed. He means he interpreted her behaviour as favourable. She says she neither expected nor wanted what he did. So neither is lying and no one can 'prove' the intent of either - something he's probably counting on and he's probably also feeling aggrieved that his perfectly innocent intentions are being misinterpreted.
The principle is that a man in a position of authority should never take for granted any sort of physical contact with a woman who works for him. The way he behaved towards all the other women in the team makes me uncomfortable but they are either used to it or I'm uptight and English. Shaking hands, giving them a kiss on the cheek (or both, this being Europe), even holding their shoulders at arms length - these are normal social interactions that don't infringe personal space. Grabbing them round the waist, kissing their necks and patting their bums - all of which he was doing - are not, not to me. And I think he should either sincerely apologise or step down if he can't see why he should apologise.
It's not about that kiss, but what it represents. Watching him, and all that crotch grabbing and pointing during the game, I think he's a bully and in the habit of being overfamiliar, but that's me jumping to judgement on the basis of limited information.
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
If she did nothing she consented, if she kneed him in the nuts she over-reacted! She can't win.
She shouldn't have to consent or react. He needs to learn about inappropriate behaviour whatever the circumstances.
And yes it has happened to me too; once at a Christmas do and once on my birthday. Both times I was a married woman minding my own business but only once was my husband there to knock the guy into next week. Apparently he didn't need to hit him so hard! Like I say, you can't win.
Just keep your hands and other body parts to yourself and then it won't be an issue.
Posts
ETA: just thinking about this a bit more; it's a masculine (not always male) trait to take what they want and the focus is always then on another person to resist. And if they don't then it's OK. It can subtle - in meetings its common for someone to state a position and wait for someone to challenge them - "it's like this" [looks around for disagreement]. It's the attitude of privilege - 'I am always going to state my opinion because I expect to be listened to'. Others, not only women but people who don't grow up with that expectation, will be more conciliatory from the outset - "I was wondering if", or "could we consider" and then expect a discussion rather than an argument.
That guy, whatever his name is, took what he wanted and if she didn't react fast enough to deny that, she's deemed to have agreed to it. It ought to be that we don't have to be constantly on the defensive. It ought to be that he didn't just assume it was fine unless he got a punch on the nose. The same attitude runs all the way from the reason why men think women are bossy if they speak in a meeting for more than 30% of the time to the murder of Sarah Everard. It needs to be challenged
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
At best you could say the guy got over excited but as a champion football player, the woman could have reacted by giving him a swift well aimed kick - another winning goal. In her defence, she too was probably excited over the win and too tired to react quickly enough.
Slightly different scenario to a business meeting tho the attitude towards women in general certainly needs a good shakeup. Horrendous in the 1960/70/80's and often not much better in the 2020's.
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
When I changed career from bookseller to IT in '77 i was shocked to find the office canteen featured a weekly list of best looking ormost sexy female. This was in a 50 strong company with only a dozen women, 5 of whom were secretarial/receptionist staff.
I had a chat with a senior programmer and she and I took a tour of the offices, quietly lifting the back of the men's jackets and going yes/no/Hmmm as the mood took us. When asked what we were doing we said we were assessing the men's bums.
The list on the coffee machine never appeared again.
Neither behaviour would be tolerated now but misoginy and other prejudices are still all too common and not everyone on the receiving end has the power or support to protect or defend themselves without risking their jobs.
The principle is that a man in a position of authority should never take for granted any sort of physical contact with a woman who works for him. The way he behaved towards all the other women in the team makes me uncomfortable but they are either used to it or I'm uptight and English. Shaking hands, giving them a kiss on the cheek (or both, this being Europe), even holding their shoulders at arms length - these are normal social interactions that don't infringe personal space. Grabbing them round the waist, kissing their necks and patting their bums - all of which he was doing - are not, not to me. And I think he should either sincerely apologise or step down if he can't see why he should apologise.
It's not about that kiss, but what it represents. Watching him, and all that crotch grabbing and pointing during the game, I think he's a bully and in the habit of being overfamiliar, but that's me jumping to judgement on the basis of limited information.
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
She can't win.
She shouldn't have to consent or react. He needs to learn about inappropriate behaviour whatever the circumstances.
And yes it has happened to me too; once at a Christmas do and once on my birthday. Both times I was a married woman minding my own business but only once was my husband there to knock the guy into next week. Apparently he didn't need to hit him so hard! Like I say, you can't win.
Just keep your hands and other body parts to yourself and then it won't be an issue.