I’m afraid the tribalism goes way way back. It’s just been simmering under the surface, unheard.
Maastricht saw a divide, but nobody was in a position to do anything much about it.
The Scots (I can only speak for the Scots as I don’t know any Welsh people) have been feeling that Westminster has been dragging them along against their will for generations.
The young wanted to stay, the old wanted out.
There are countless examples of groups of people who for years and years haven’t felt that their wishes have been listened to.
The United Kingdom has hardly ever been united. Perhaps only in times of real crisis, such as the Blitz. It’s a myth.
You know, I find this oddly comforting, much as I shouldnt. Hearing some of the comments here makes me worry that people taking leave of their senses to 'kiss the badge', so to speak, in response to every current event is a new and growing trend. And when it reaches fever pitch you really do worry where it will all end on some of the darker days.
On the other hand if people have behaved like this for much longer without things bubbling over, no reason to fear things will change now. Although I really do struggle to remember a government that has decided quite so boldly to abandon the centre ground before, and to remain so tone deaf to the pleas of half of the electorate. Those crowing that they 'won' again would do well to remember that politics runs in cycles. The sense of political pain and detachment such 'culture' wars and partisan politics create for the 'losing' side does nothing good for our society.
That's only a broad trend, there are plenty of younger people who voted out and lots of older people (like my staunchly socialist grandparents and many others who actually remember war in Europe) who voted to remain.
According to my 95 year old mother it was the sixty to eighty year olds who had a leave majority but for those over 80 (who are old enough to remember the war) the majority voted to remain. I haven't checked whether she's right though.
According to my 95 year old mother it was the sixty to eighty year olds who had a leave majority but for those over 80 (who are old enough to remember the war) the majority voted to remain. I haven't checked whether she's right though.
Yes, she was, statistically. Which makes something of a mockery of those who use that generation / evoke wartime memories to justify the leave vote.
This isn't about Cummings per se - it's about the actions he took. If Ken Livingstone had done it, it would be just as wrong as an action, but the reaction may be less. If an anonymous brick layer had done it, irrespective of political affiliation, the act would be just as wrong - but the reaction less.
I'd like to know how many people, who support the action that he took, would still condone it if the action revolved around their area. IE someone drives, 260 miles, to an empty property in your vicinity - carrying a suspected covid carrier. If they knew about that, wouldn't any sensible person be up in arms? - as that one act threatened the spreading of the virus from where it originated to all points along the way and where it ends up particularly.
In this case, what makes it worse, is that Cummings (and this bit he as Cummings is responsible for) is part of a team that made the rules, devised the slogans - told the police how to enforce the rules. He KNEW exactly what the spirit of the rules were.
Stay At Home -> Protect The NHS - SAVE LIVES (not save your own family please note - it was about OTHERS)
The rules were:
Do not drive - you may break down or have an accident - involving OTHERS
Do not drive - you may have to stop and infect or be infected by wherever you stop - involving OTHERS
Lockdown in your own home if you suspect you have the virus for 7 days for an individual or 14 days for a family group - to try to AVOID involving OTHERS
He put a 4 year old in the car. How many parents have been in this scenario:
'Kids - use the loo. We're about to set off ...'
'Ok dad, I'm fine...'
'I'm fine too....'
'OK - let's go...'
..... 20 minutes later...
'Dad...dad...I need the loo..'
'But I told you to use the loo'
'I didn't need the loo then....'
'Now he's said it, I need the loo too...can we stop?'
So - he (Cummings) puts his child at risk in the car, can't know if the car would break down or they'd be in an accident. Must have though that his child would need the loo at least once on a 4 hour trip. AND put in motion the one thing that he said he was worried about. IE both him and his wife getting the virus - by sitting in a car with her for,what, 4 hours+? And with what PPE? Any? None?
The excuse that his nieces were young and less likely to get the virus badly was insane - as it totally ignored the advice and the medical knowledge. True - part of the spin - kids/youngsters may have less symptoms and a better reaction - but they can still carry the virus and spread it elsewhere - back to their family and potentially his parents, the local shop, the local garage.... Conversely, had he stayed at home, his son would never have been in that much risk. No one actually believes that an adviser's child would have been left to fend for itself, should both parents have been incapacitated surely? But what would have occurred, is if Cummings and his wife had both been taken ill at the same time, he would/should have called 111 and the issue may have escalated - resulting in potentially people in PPE attending. Those attendees would have been part of virus control - and unlike his nieces, have then also taken precautions during and after their shift.
The actions all along were wrong. The excuses don't make sense. And it does concern me, that if this is really how the advisers to the gov think (and it isn't just spin by Cummings who thought he could spin his way out of it), then I really despair.
And yes - it's the actions that is wrong. Much like a police commissioner being caught drunk in charge of a car after a Masonic do. The act is wrong as well, but because of the offender's position, the act has to be seen differently and the offender treated more harshly doesn't it? So Cummings position can't be ignored - you can't divorce Cummings from his role and from the actions that he took. If it were Alastair Campbell advising a different gov, the same would apply.
Matt Hancock now has an amazingly difficult task in trying to convince people to 'do their duty' (to OTHERS presumably) and lock down for 14 days if they are contacted by the NHS track and trace teams. What's the difference in locking down in say, London, or in the holiday home in Devon?
I personally think the gov are trying to do a good job - like any gov would. They may have got things wrong - they may have got others right. I'm not sure any other government would have done any better - and we can never tell. I'm not a great lover of the Trump style bigging things up - and prefer the Macron more honest approach. But any gov has the decision about keeping morale up. It's just a mess out there and Boris et al have to try to balance keeping the virus down and keeping the UK solvent. Nightmare. It really didn't need this with Cummings. Especially not now, when the next phase relies even more on small groups (travellers from airports, those advised due to track/trace) doing exactly what is instructed - not using instinct.
I think it is a great pity that public figures dare not say they made a mistake or did wrong. Most of us are able to do both of these things and express regret or pay the penalty and get on with our lives - hopefully wiser or chastened. Politicians, especially, cannot do this so they end up defending the indefensible and stoking our scepticism and distrust. Often ridicule and contempt. It ought not to be this way.
When somebody makes a fool you and then says that “we should move on”, do you feel more or less inclined to do so?
Personally, I find this patronising and aggravating, because it's in effect saying my original grievance is illegitimate. It's another way of saying 'get over it'.
For the record @steveTu, I'm with you on this. But I have throughout tried to force myself to reflect on my own biases, and whether I'm seeing this as it really is because of them.
Also for the record, @Rik56 you're a perfect example of seeing all of this through the lens of your tribal loyalties, as your rather tiresome posts getting at various Labour figures or banging on about Brexit rather neatly demonstrates. I don't mean to make it personal, but please try to separate some of these things out. It is possible to take a view on the rightness and wrongness of the Cummings business without reflexively resorting to party politics and whatabouterry, as plenty of Brexit and Tory voters have done.
I’m another who finds Rik’s pro-Brexit, anti-Labour themes tiresome and irrelevant. And what was with the ‘Amen’ a few posts back? Are you some alt-right evangelical American?
Steve Tu, I am with you on some of your points but think you’re over egging the pudding when you say
”somebody [a Covid carrier] drives, 260 miles, to an empty property in your vicinity ... wouldn’t any sensible person be up in arms?”
I’m a sensible person and I would not be in the slightest bit concerned if he was isolated in a farm building half a mile from any people apart from his family. Not so long ago someone in our village contracted Coronavirus. She lives 100 yards from me and I was certainly concerned for her but never once was worried about my personal health, and nor were her immediate neighbours, while she isolated in her own property and rode out the storm. Were the infected person to be living in the same apartment block as me and we shared a common hallway and entrance I would be careful but I still would not be up in arms.
@BenCotto it’s not that you feel you might be personally at risk from the individual isolating in their holiday cottage ... it’s that they may become seriously ill, so might their wife and child/ren. They will be making demands on the NHS provision in an area where they are not registered and where the NHS Trust receives no funding to provide them with a service.
Not a huge thing if it’s one family ... in parts of coastal Suffolk and Norfolk the proportion of second homers to permanent residents is considerable. The A12 up to Aldeburgh, Snape, Southwold, Walberswick and Woodbridge was nose to tail in direction of the east coast the week before Lockdown was confirmed. My family all live in that area ... they know that the majority of second homes have people living in them at the moment. 🙄
This is an area with an already above average number of elderly likely to need medical attention if they contracted COVID.
That is yet another reason why people should Stay Home ... for the good of everybody, not just the few.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Posts
On the other hand if people have behaved like this for much longer without things bubbling over, no reason to fear things will change now. Although I really do struggle to remember a government that has decided quite so boldly to abandon the centre ground before, and to remain so tone deaf to the pleas of half of the electorate. Those crowing that they 'won' again would do well to remember that politics runs in cycles. The sense of political pain and detachment such 'culture' wars and partisan politics create for the 'losing' side does nothing good for our society.
[from https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2019/03/21/not-all-the-over-65s-are-in-favour-of-brexit-britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/)
Thanks for that @LG_. Too lazy to do the research myself!
For the record @steveTu, I'm with you on this. But I have throughout tried to force myself to reflect on my own biases, and whether I'm seeing this as it really is because of them.
Also for the record, @Rik56 you're a perfect example of seeing all of this through the lens of your tribal loyalties, as your rather tiresome posts getting at various Labour figures or banging on about Brexit rather neatly demonstrates. I don't mean to make it personal, but please try to separate some of these things out. It is possible to take a view on the rightness and wrongness of the Cummings business without reflexively resorting to party politics and whatabouterry, as plenty of Brexit and Tory voters have done.
Steve Tu, I am with you on some of your points but think you’re over egging the pudding when you say
”somebody [a Covid carrier] drives, 260 miles, to an empty property in your vicinity ... wouldn’t any sensible person be up in arms?”
I’m a sensible person and I would not be in the slightest bit concerned if he was isolated in a farm building half a mile from any people apart from his family. Not so long ago someone in our village contracted Coronavirus. She lives 100 yards from me and I was certainly concerned for her but never once was worried about my personal health, and nor were her immediate neighbours, while she isolated in her own property and rode out the storm. Were the infected person to be living in the same apartment block as me and we shared a common hallway and entrance I would be careful but I still would not be up in arms.
was nose to tail in direction of the east coast the week before Lockdown was confirmed. My family all live in that area ... they know that the majority of second homes have people living in them at the moment. 🙄
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.