My Paul Noel/Paul Transon bud is opening and even without seeing it open, it fits the early references for Paul Noel better than those for Paul Transon.
While going through the oldest references (1911-26 for PN and 1896-1920 for PT), I noticed one thing:
References describe PN as having small clusters of 2-3 or 2-5 blooms. PT in early references is described as having "multiflora-like inflorescence", "paniculate multi-bloom inflorescence", "flowers produced in large panicles in great profusion", "large panicles", "large trusses of from ten to twenty flowers". With other characteristics being somewhat similar and the quilling hard to compare, I am wondering if this could be the main differentiating feature. Anyway, in the later references, there's a change. 1936 Rosenlexikon reference states "in clusters of 3-5" and this gets repeated in later references. If I understand it correctly, this description is based on the Sangerhausen plant.
So I guess, the confusion occurred sometime between the wars in Germany which can be understandable given the economic situation. And quite possibly, the plant grown in Sangerhausen as Paul Transon is Paul Noel, the same goes for the imported clone in Mottisfont and clones sold by Beales, Austin and White. Quite possibly for all PTs in Europe. Of course, these are just theories, more research into the origin of the various clones sold in Europe would be needed to get deeper into it.
Interestingly, in Australia, PN is also sold as PT. I would like to know if there is a real PT somewhere in commerce in Europe or even worldwide.
..Yes, I thought so too, interesting to see the weather patterns that way.. it also makes clear how far north we are at latitude 52 degrees North, which is on a par with cold parts of Canada.. it's only the Gulf Stream that keeps us mild.. there is nowhere else on the planet like these islands here, that are so far from the equator yet retain a temperate mild climate.. even if many of its human inhabitants are continually disgruntled - no surprise there - plants love the place, more especially the southern and coastal areas in favoured spots... roses can bloom and look better elsewhere in the world, but for general gardening, it surpasses most places for the range of plants that can be grown here... it's the range that makes the islands so special for growing, notwithstanding the occasional but devastating plant diseases that occur from time to time..
@Omori ...I meant to say how lovely your roses are... how are you finding 'Dame Judi Dench'? not one I'm liking too much so far, for various reasons, and increasingly tiresome to wait so long for these types of roses to show their best..at least in my sometimes hostile conditions here..
@edhelka ..that's a lovely rose isn't it? but I think much too early to be definitive.. but the general consensus seems to favour Paul Noel... it will be good to see how well it repeats when established, that's what I'd like to know in particular... Mr Thomas never mentioned Paul Noel in his volumes of work from what I can see, only Paul Transon, and it was a favourite of his because of it's repeat flowering capabilities... but was he looking at Paul Noel and like everyone else, didn't realise it... everyone makes mistakes..
David Austin roses seem easy to strike from cuttings... but another way is to dig up one of them as they appear to develop their own roots quickly... here are some examples.. I removed my Munstead Wood's but decided to keep a couple as 'own root', as they may grow better in my conditions that way.. I did this about 3 weeks ago..
..a severed cane doing really well.. 'Anne Boleyn'.. I decided not to keep this rose, as the repeat was too slow ..
'Vanessa Bell' after just 3 months...several canes possible here.. the graft has to be buried a couple of inches of course.. and after severing, the remaining bare root can be replanted... best done early March or early Autumn..
'England's Rose' is only a foot tall yet full of buds.. rose sickness but desperately trying to get over it... stands up well to the astonishing weather I had yesterday..
..update on 'The Country Parson'... this also had rose sickness, but recovered quickly when dug up and potted in good compost... this rose is marketed as a yellow rose, but I find the yellow fades quickly and it becomes essentially a white rose.. the blooms last longer white, than yellow... I wonder if anyone else has noticed that?... nice lemony fragrance. and the white bloom reminds me of several antique Tea or Alba roses ..
I got this gorgeous white lacecap Hydrangea 'Libelle'.. 'Lanarth White' is another good lacecap, they look great with large growing red fuchsias.. like magellanica or ricartonii.. I used to have a hedge of Lanarth White and ricartonii in another garden..
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PT in early references is described as having "multiflora-like inflorescence", "paniculate multi-bloom inflorescence", "flowers produced in large panicles in great profusion", "large panicles", "large trusses of from ten to twenty flowers".
With other characteristics being somewhat similar and the quilling hard to compare, I am wondering if this could be the main differentiating feature. Anyway, in the later references, there's a change. 1936 Rosenlexikon reference states "in clusters of 3-5" and this gets repeated in later references. If I understand it correctly, this description is based on the Sangerhausen plant.
...I meant to say how lovely your roses are... how are you finding 'Dame Judi Dench'? not one I'm liking too much so far, for various reasons, and increasingly tiresome to wait so long for these types of roses to show their best..at least in my sometimes hostile conditions here..
..that's a lovely rose isn't it? but I think much too early to be definitive.. but the general consensus seems to favour Paul Noel... it will be good to see how well it repeats when established, that's what I'd like to know in particular... Mr Thomas never mentioned Paul Noel in his volumes of work from what I can see, only Paul Transon, and it was a favourite of his because of it's repeat flowering capabilities... but was he looking at Paul Noel and like everyone else, didn't realise it... everyone makes mistakes..
I removed my Munstead Wood's but decided to keep a couple as 'own root', as they may grow better in my conditions that way.. I did this about 3 weeks ago..
..a severed cane doing really well..
'Anne Boleyn'.. I decided not to keep this rose, as the repeat was too slow ..
'Vanessa Bell' after just 3 months...several canes possible here.. the graft has to be buried a couple of inches of course.. and after severing, the remaining bare root can be replanted... best done early March or early Autumn..
.. Vanessa Bell again....
..update on 'The Country Parson'... this also had rose sickness, but recovered quickly when dug up and potted in good compost... this rose is marketed as a yellow rose, but I find the yellow fades quickly and it becomes essentially a white rose.. the blooms last longer white, than yellow... I wonder if anyone else has noticed that?... nice lemony fragrance. and the white bloom reminds me of several antique Tea or Alba roses ..
I got this gorgeous white lacecap Hydrangea 'Libelle'.. 'Lanarth White' is another good lacecap, they look great with large growing red fuchsias.. like magellanica or ricartonii.. I used to have a hedge of Lanarth White and ricartonii in another garden..