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Rose growing too vigorous

CraighBCraighB Posts: 758
in Problem solving
Hi I purchased a couple of climbing roses to go either side of a wooden arch and over the top. The arch is 2 meters high. I chose the Alchymist rose from Peter Beales as it says it grows to around 3.6 meters high, which I thought would be about right to go over the top of the arch.

It's been in the ground a couple of years and it's produced some huge stems which I have trained over the top and some I have zig zagged up the sides. The problem is when it started to produce the flowering stems in spring this year the stems were absolutely huge! It looked like an octopus and it looked a mess really rather than a pretty rose arch.

Can anyone tell me why this is happening?

David Austin also sell this rose and they have said it grows over 5.5 meters! Big difference from what Peter Beales say. However I still didn't think it would produce such huge side shoots like it did.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Craigh 
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Posts

  • BenCottoBenCotto Posts: 4,718
    edited November 2023
    I have just put ‘alchymist rose height’ into Google and got these immediate results: 4.0, 3.6, 5.5, 4.0, 3.6, 4.5, 4.0, 6.1, 3.5, 4.0, 5.0 (I ignored results expressed in feet only). The average of that lot is 4.35 metres so if your pergola is 2 metres high it is pretty obvious your rose is well over twice the height you want it to be.

    I think your only option is to cut it right back, dig it out and replant it somewhere more appropriate. The problem is what to plant in its place as roses do not grow well if put into the ground where a rose has previously been. You might be all right as the original rose has only been in the ground a couple of years, and you can get cardboard boxes to mitigate the effects of rose replant disease. Others might be able to advise better.
    Rutland, England
  • CraighBCraighB Posts: 758
    @BenCotto Well it's a square arch so when the rose reaches the top I train it horizontal for another meter. But it's the shoots that come off these horizontal canes that look unsightly. Literally sprawling everywhere and they are probably over a meter long.

    I think I'm going to dig it up though like you said. I did read online that actually if you do replace it with another rose you can use mycorrhizal fungi on the roots and plenty of well rotted manure and the rose should be fine. Worth a try anyway :)
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    edited November 2023
    Cut the sideshoots back to three buds. They’re the ones that’ll bear the flowers. 

    See these instructions for pruning climbing roses from the DA site 

    “… To begin, identify the side stems of your rose that you will need to prune. These will be growing off the long, thick stems at the base of the rose which provide the structure. Prune the side stems back to the main stem, leaving around 2 to 3 inches.…”
    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/blogs/news/how-to-prune-an-established-climbing-rose


    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • CraighBCraighB Posts: 758
    Dovefromabove said:
    Cut the sideshoots back to three buds. They’re the ones that’ll bear the flowers. 
    Once I've cut them back to 3 buds will the flowering shoots that come off these be a lot shorter?

    In the first year it grew some huge canes from the bare root that I planted and I trained these up and over the arch. And then this year from the stems I trained over the top vertical shoots came and these did have flowers but they were on meter long stems?
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    edited November 2023
    This video will show you 
    https://paulzimmermanroses.com/gardening/climbing-rose-care/pillaring-a-climbing-rose/ 

    You can’t just leave a climbing roses to do it’s own thing … any climbing rose needs regular attention … especially on a pillar (which is what an arch is)  but get it right and it’ll repay you. 

    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • NollieNollie Posts: 7,529
    Some roses, climbing or otherwise, are just prone to sending up long, vigorous flowering shoots (‘laterals’) from the main canes regardless of proper pruning for a once-blooming rose - pruning them back to a couple of buds in summer after flowering is finished, as Dove describes. My Madame Alfred Carriére does it. There is a report on another forum of somebody’s Alchymist - in a warmer climate - shooting up 3-4m long laterals!

    I don’t have it so don’t know if Alchymist’s laterals will shoot right back up again the next season even after appropriate pruning the previous summer - it may well help keep them shorter - but you do need to do it anyway to prevent an unholy mess.

    If the new lateral growth from the short stubs is just as long, you could bend and tie some of them in so they themselves behave like main canes and grow (hopefully shorter) laterals. This would also give you more blooms. I would also experiment with reducing the length of some of the new laterals before they form flower buds on the tips, so hopefully a new flowering bud will develop lower down. Worth a try before you decide to move them? 
    Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    CraighB said:
     I did read online that actually if you do replace it with another rose you can use mycorrhizal fungi on the roots and plenty of well rotted manure and the rose should be fine. Worth a try anyway :)

    The thing for Rose Replant Disease is the wine box method. Dig a hole where you want your rose, put in a stiff cardboard box, like a wine box (those kind of dimensions) and fill the box and your new rose with fresh soil that's come from nowhere near a rose. I've used the wine box method over the past few years and it has been brilliant. Previously I had tried just removing soil, but the micros in the remaining soil, infect the new soil pretty quickly without a barrier. By the time the wine box disintegrates, the rose is established and the soil has adjusted. You can use the removed soil anywhere there are not roses.


    https://www.finegardening.com/article/give-new-roses-a-good-boxing-around-the-roots

  • CraighBCraighB Posts: 758
    Very good advice!! I will definitely try that wine box method it can't hurt! The problem is if I use mycorrhizal fungi and the wine box method the fungi won't be able to do its thing will it?

    @Nollie I'm not surprised to hear that it was shooting up 3-4 meter laterals. So the alchymist rose is now gone and I will move this elsewhere in the garden where it can grow up a wall and I'm replacing it with The Pilgrim. I spoke to David Austin today and they say it should be perfect for the arch so we shall see :) 
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited November 2023
    CraighB said:
    Very good advice!! I will definitely try that wine box method it can't hurt! The problem is if I use mycorrhizal fungi and the wine box method the fungi won't be able to do its thing will it?

    Use MRF - don't worry. There is new evidence (University of Hanover).
  • NollieNollie Posts: 7,529
    Best of luck with The Pilgrim on your arch then. Probably for the best, I suspect Alchymist will ultimately prove too boisterous for it. TP has the bonus of being a repeat flowerer too.

    You don’t really need the m. fungi with the box because you are putting uncontaminated soil in it, but if you already have it, by all means use it. It’s hotly debated whether it has any effect at all, but I do usually sprinkle some on the roots just in case. I adopt the belt and braces position when replanting roses, box or not!
    Mountainous Northern Catalunya, Spain. Hot summers, cold winters.
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