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climbing v shrub roses - any inherent difference at all?

FireFire Posts: 19,096
in Problem solving
I admit I still don't get the cultivation/hormone pattern difference between climbers and shrub roses. These roses threads have talked many times about how one named cultivar is  completely the same plant whether sold in its climbing or shrub form - there are no genetic differences. So - for example, Gertrude J is exactly the same plant whether sold as a climber or as a shrub rose.  The max height for the shrub is given as one metre, the max height for the climber is given as 2.5 metres. Are we to suppose that the only difference is how they have been pruned at the nursery before they arrive with the customer? Surely initial pruning isn't going to make very much difference to the plant after a few years. The same exact plant isn't going to stop throwing out long canes and stop at one metre.

Does a shrub rose arrive with multiple canes and a climber has just a few? Do they do something arcane at the nursery to the shrub roses to stop them growing tall? Is there some kind of spell? I hear it whispered sometimes that if one over-prunes a climbing rose it can "revert" to becoming a shrub. It all sounds very mysterious. Any ideas?

Thanks, Confused from Finchley.
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Posts

  • philippasmith2philippasmith2 Posts: 3,742
    I imagine @Marlorena may be able to help you :)
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    Good question @fire
    2 of my shrub Gertrude Jekyll have stems about 7ft this year.
    I have 4 shrub Gentle Hermione all of which are producing stems about 6ft so I was going to ask the same question
    And of course my shrub Moonlight is now a good 15ft wide and high - I did warn you 😁

    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited September 2023
    philippasmith2 said:
    I imagine @Marlorena may be able to help you :)

    I believe I have pestered her on this matter before :D Perhaps I am just being dense. 
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited September 2023
    Pete.8 said:
    And of course my shrub Moonlight is now a good 15ft wide and high - I did warn you 😁

    Moonlight is one of the most successful choices in my garden, Pete - gone in around four years ago now, purely on your recomm. It has flowers on it pretty much from Feb to the frost, with wonderful waves of various peaks. I have two together, which cover a fence about  8ftx 15ft but I do prune it to rein it in. I imagine they could easily double in size in the coming years. And yes, Moonlight is described (universally?) as a "shrub rose". I grow it as a rambler - because you have and that is what I was looking for.


    I can understand the idea that "roses are roses" - each cultivar has its own habit and that one plant perhaps can be grown on as a shrub, a climber, a rambler, a smaller container rose - depending on all the possibilities of garden variation and taste; that is - space available, design wishes, sun exposure, shelterness of position, soil etc.  What confuses me is the very specific categories and labels given. If there is really is only one Gertrude, why sell it in two different forms (climbing and shrub) and expressly state different growing habits and sizes for the two plants? One metre and three metres is a very different ball game and not to be shrugged off.

    I have a friend new to gardening, trying to grow roses for the first time and trying out with Gertrude.  She doesn't know whether to grow G as a shrub (1 metre tall) or a climber (3 metres all) and I can't tell her how it works. If she trys to grow her "Climbing" Gertie as a shrub, will it all go horrible wrong and the sky fall in?


  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    From the above webpage I note-

    Can be grown as small climber 

    No

    hmmmmm....


    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited September 2023
    I get that the category assignment has to be rough at best - but is there deliberate misrepresentation going on?

    Does it mean there are no "climbing roses" per se, only vigorous shrub roses that can be pruned in a certain way if you want long canes?

    I am no rosarian. GJ is described on Help Me find as a "shrub rose" with one code:   AUSbord  -  height given 120 to 305cm

    Lady Hillingdon is described as a inherently a "climbing rose" on HMF.


  • Busy-LizzieBusy-Lizzie Posts: 24,043
    This is something that has puzzled me too.

    I have had several roses bought as shrubs that have tried or are still trying to be climbers, Westerland, Gertrude Jekyll, Graham Thomas, Oranges and Lemons, Louise Odier. I've seen Constance Spry sold as climbers and shrubs. Mine were tall shrubs. I'm growing Penelope as a short climber but I bought her as a shrub. When I bought The Pilgrim, years ago, David Austin listed her in 2 places in the catalogue, as a climber and as a shrub. I grew her as a climber. I bought Happiness from Meilland as a climber but she has stayed shrub size.

    I tried pruning Westerland and Oranges and Lemons very low but they just grew back.
    Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    edited September 2023
    For new growers this is all very confusing and feels obsucated.

    In the name of 'good practice', helpfulness to growers, clarity, aboveboardness and honesty, should changes in categories and labels be made somewhere (understanding that all this is not an exact science)?   Or maybe I just missed a meeting.
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    I've just emailed Peter Beales and mentioned Moonlight and the size mine has got to and asked why and what defines the size a rose can get to.
    Won't get a response I doubt until after the weekend.

    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • bédébédé Posts: 3,095
    edited October 2023
    My 'Constance Spry' grew 30ft up a tree and then cascaded 30ft back down again.  I call that a climber.

    The tree died and I now allow the rose to reach 8ft.  I feel I could stabilise it at 5ft if I wanted.  I call that a shrub.

    Climber or shrub,  it's more a decription of how you choose to grow them.  New users in any jargon have difficulties.  The climber/shrub problem shrinks when compared with "Compost".
     location: Surrey Hills, England, ex-woodland acidic sand.
    "Have nothing in your garden that you don't know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."
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