Of course you can have an opinion dove, but you said:
'...I agree that Balgay Hill has his finger on Putin’s thinking which is behind the invasion.
However just because I understand the reason,....'
Implying that you 'know' what Putin is thinking - you 'understand the reason' - simply because Balgay said something that agreed with your opinion - you then project that on Putin. I was just pointing out you can't do that.
For goodness sake @steveTu ... I think few people on this forum claim they know it all ... we say what we think and deduce from our experiences ... what we hear and what we read and are told ... I know what extended family members and friends who grew up in Russia in the Soviet era, some of whom left and came to the UK in the last 15 years, are telling me about what they know, think and understand. Every time I quote these family members you tell me I'm wrong. I repeatedly say that I'm quoting from folk in Russia but you always jump on me and tell me I'm wrong.
A member of my extended family is/was a successful businesswoman in Russia ... she has travelled to the UK and other parts of Europe and the Middle East many times ... her substantial savings are virtually worthless because of the inflation caused by this war ... but she still believes in Putin and maintains that he is a hero because he saved Russia from the chaos of the Gorbachev/Yeltsin era ... her daughter tells us her mother would cut her right arm off if Putin told her to. As I've said, he still has huge support among the generation of Russians who remember those times.
I was not projecting anything onto Putin ... what @Balgay.Hill said is what Putin has been telling Russians for ages ... Russians in Russia repeat it to us. Why do you jump on me when I say that? Are you not interested in what people in Russia think about the situation ... surely if problems are going to be solved we have to try to understand where both sides are coming from even if we don't agree with them ... surely you don't think that the only way to solve a problem is to bomb the opposition into oblivion?
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
@Balgay.Hill just an addition: that story about the NATO and border was soon spread by the left as soon as they came over the shock what had happen. Knowing that this chap wouldn’t hesitate to drop the bomb onto their heads, it became a kind of excuse to bear the loss of conviction.
@Balgay.Hill just an addition: that story about the NATO and border was soon spread by the left as soon as they came over the shock what had happen. Knowing that this chap wouldn’t hesitate to drop the bomb onto their heads, it became a kind of excuse to bear the loss of conviction.
It's not an excuse for the left ... it's what Putin has been saying for some years in order to build up a swell of opinion to back him in Russia. If the West had been more aware of or given more weight to this they might have been more prepared to act when he invaded Crimea.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
I understand the nato argument for the current reaction but a lot of the countries joined nato because of the Russian threat. He has brought this on himself and severely weakened his country for the future. He has even now got Japan considering nuclear weapons which means further encircling of Russia.
Ukraine was imo invaded because they thought it would be easy, make Russia look strong and make the leader look strong. It appears to have done the complete opposite and galvanised the opposition.
'....Are you not interested in what people in Russia think about the
situation ... surely if problems are going to be solved we have to try
to understand where both sides are coming from even if we don't agree
with them ... surely you don't think that the only way to solve a
problem is to bomb the opposition into oblivion?'
What (the bold)? How on earth did you ever get to that from what I have been saying?
Of course I would like to know what the Russians are thinking, but as I clumsily tried to point out with my Brexit analogy, even in a country where I live, where I hear different views, I would never dream of projecting what a few people I know think on the whole population. In Russia's case that's even more fraught isn't it? Russia has what, 140 million people and how many of those Russians feel they can openly oppose Putin and stand against what he says? So how can you ever know 'what Russia thinks' when what Putin has been trying to do for decades is to control that? Another clumsy analogy,wouldn't it be like asking a five year old in late November if they believe in Santa Claus, when the whole of their life they have been told, in general, that he exists?And then projecting that across ALL children from 0-16?
I don't know what Russians believe (and I don't think its entirely possible inside an oppressive regime), I have no idea of what Putin's motives are - but I did read (whether this is the correct version or not, or even translated correctly) this a while back after it was quoted so many times - http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 - and my impression from that was that Putin just thinks Ukraine is part of Russia - that seems to be his overarching argument - and always will be. Oddly, his arguments in that article Dove, seem to counter your 'the west providing money for Ukraine' as he seems to think Ukraine would be better off being part of 'Russia' anyway. Again though, Putin is a dictator, and whether that article reflects how he actually feels, who knows? Can it be real when he argues against the murdering of woman and children, argues that Ukraine and Russia is one, one race one group and then starts a 'special military operation' that does to then own people what he's accused Ukraine of? I think there are a few telling paragraphs in that article - but then I'm probably just picking the bits that agree with my point of view.
Oh, and by the way, there's no hidden code in what I've said above - or any subliminal message - that says 'I think we should bomb the opposition into oblivion'. I don't believe in violence as a solution to anything - BUT - I do believe ALL people should be able to defend themselves AND band together to do that against a larger and more violent aggressor.
Posts
A member of my extended family is/was a successful businesswoman in Russia ... she has travelled to the UK and other parts of Europe and the Middle East many times ... her substantial savings are virtually worthless because of the inflation caused by this war ... but she still believes in Putin and maintains that he is a hero because he saved Russia from the chaos of the Gorbachev/Yeltsin era ... her daughter tells us her mother would cut her right arm off if Putin told her to. As I've said, he still has huge support among the generation of Russians who remember those times.
I was not projecting anything onto Putin ... what @Balgay.Hill said is what Putin has been telling Russians for ages ... Russians in Russia repeat it to us. Why do you jump on me when I say that? Are you not interested in what people in Russia think about the situation ... surely if problems are going to be solved we have to try to understand where both sides are coming from even if we don't agree with them ... surely you don't think that the only way to solve a problem is to bomb the opposition into oblivion?
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
I ♥ my garden.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Ukraine was imo invaded because they thought it would be easy, make Russia look strong and make the leader look strong. It appears to have done the complete opposite and galvanised the opposition.