What happens if gas boilers are better converted to hydrogen, rather than installing 'source' pumps? Ditto for cars? What if hydrogen is the (a) way for cars? OK - I know fossil fuels are limited life - but, but, but - doesn't hydrogen give a clean transition? And hydrogen can be (and is) derived from natural gas - so you have an incentive.
Wouldn't a plan be to go fossil-hydrogen-electric? Use the renewable energy in the conversion of natural gas to hydrogen. Is that practical/sensible?
I'm sure I've already said this but you're not the only one that bangs on about things
Hydrogen is a much smaller molecule than methane. It burns faster and it burns hotter. It is not possible to simply burn hydrogen in a methane gas boiler, it has to be converted in order to greatly reduce the amount of void space inside, to change the burners to avoid flaming back into the pipes, to change all the seals on all the valves to prevent leaks, all to avoid explosions and fires. This conversion is technically possible but it will cost money to do.
It is also not possible to burn hydrogen in a methane gas hob, for much the same reasons, so again, money will have to be spent on the conversion. Similarly, for the network to supply hydrogen instead of methane will require major investment in the pipes, the valves, the infrastructure generally to make it 'no less safe than methane'. Which isn't very safe, of course. I haven't found any statistics on the number of people who are killed by gas every year - that's explosions, suicides, carbon monoxide poisoning. I'm not sure the data is collected, which is interesting. There are also health effects from the fumes from gas flames in homes that are barely studied in the UK but have been the subject of research elsewhere in the world.
So changing to hydrogen will be expensive.
Manufacturing hydrogen requires energy. To manufacture green hydrogen and then burn it in a boiler requires roughly x7 the amount of electricity as it would need to create the same amount of heat by just putting that electricity into a heat pump. Which would mean a) you have to pay for all that electricity in the cost of the hydrogen and b) we need to find space for x7 the amount of solar panels and wind turbines.
So hydrogen will not be cheap to buy.
So it's expensive and dangerous. If someone today had come up with the idea of piping explosive, toxic gas into everyone's homes, I seriously doubt we'd all be going 'oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea'. Why then would we invest in hydrogen for anything except the uses for which we can't use electricity directly? I can imagine listed buildings owned by people with very deep pockets may be heated by hydrogen boilers, and hydrogen fuel cells for HGVs and buses. But ordinary houses and ordinary cars? It'll be MUCH cheaper for you and for the country as a whole to use electricity.
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Talking of storing gas, when pipes were first installed in our village in the 1990s we were the first to sign up, delighted to abandon our coal fired central heating.
While confirming on the phone our determined interest in having gas installed, the chap from British Gas issued a word of caution,
”You do realise you cannot have gas until the pipes are laid, don’t you?”
Here in the North-West, there was never a problem with petrol.
Service stations are mostly supplied by a BP/Shell depot on Merseyside.
The "panic" locally, was helped by a headline on the BBC's "Red Button TV News" 14 days ago (Thursday) announcing that Shell had closed a few (of a couple of thousand) stations. Presumably, those distant from a depot and not very profitable, (what's the chances of some being permantly closed once things calm down?) It's a common practice in this industry. Shell had announced these closures six days before.
I'd filled up at Asda the previous Tuesday, 21/9, it's where I get some of the shopping. There's is a 12 pump 24 hour entirely self service station and it is always busy as it's about 6p a litre cheaper than most stations.
On the following Tuesday 28/9 when I went shopping the station was busy but no more than normal. The "panic buying" locally was over.
On my way home along the busy A56, a Shell station which was fully operational had only two cars filling up.
On the same day on the "BBC Red Button News" it was announced, The government has
advised councils not to use the phrases "panic" or "panic buying" about
fuel suppply problems, "documents seen by the BBC reveal."
Presumably, they were miffed because they think that panicking the public is the BBC's job.
They had to add, "A Green Party council leader called the recommendations "nonsensical,"
Well they would wouldn't they? If they wanted to ramp up difficilties for the population, to put pressure on the government.
I can only assume the BBC didn't think the public, "were panicking enough"
over petrol as there was a long feature on it on the 9.00am news that morning. They showed a long queue at a petrol station. They then
carried out several of the, "how did you feel?" type interviews
they like to do,
with athletes having just finished a race whilst still gasping for breath, with several drivers in the queue, choosing of course, only the most
volatile. Mostly, those who obviously by their accents likely weren't born in this country, given their accent, so weren't used to queuing for anything.
I couldn't stand much more of it so I turned it off.
On Tueday 5/10, I was shopping at Asda again. There were only two cars filling up. The station on the A56 was open, petrol available, but had no cars filling up.
Shell haven't helped as they are partly to blame for the shortage of drivers.
"Back in the day" twenty years ago, when I used to manage big superstores which had petrol stations, I was aware that the drivers they had who were salaried with high wages, benefits and good pensions, were being replaced when they retired or left, by contracted agency drivers on half the pay.
For the BBC and other media, to keep mentioning petrol shortages in the South East only prompts people in other areas to keep topping up "just in case," so adding to the problem.
Tank capacity at stations varies. At my last store as we sold petrol below the average price, we'd need three tankers a week. That was a hard enough job to keep on top of in normal circumstances.
@Doghouse Riley If you'd turned up at the filling station and there had been no fuel, knew that the BBC had known about shortages but not told anyone, you'd now be banging on about State Censorship and not doing their job. And was it really ALL down to the BBC? Didn't the whole media jump on the same band wagon?
Facebook had a lot to answer for too. On our local pages people were posting pics of queues at the local Coop filling station and asking each other if such and such a station had petrol. I would imagine this was replicated on other Facebook local pages.
@Doghouse Riley If you'd turned up at the filling station and there had been no fuel, knew that the BBC had known about shortages but not told anyone, you'd now be banging on about State Censorship and not doing their job. And was it really ALL down to the BBC? Didn't the whole media jump on the same band wagon?
Hmm.
I know mine was a long post, so I'll just accept that you probably missed this bit rather than just wanted to have a go at me.
Chill out.
For the BBC and other media, to keep mentioning petrol shortages in the
South East only prompts people in other areas to keep topping up "just
in case," so adding to the problem.
Posts
Hydrogen is a much smaller molecule than methane. It burns faster and it burns hotter. It is not possible to simply burn hydrogen in a methane gas boiler, it has to be converted in order to greatly reduce the amount of void space inside, to change the burners to avoid flaming back into the pipes, to change all the seals on all the valves to prevent leaks, all to avoid explosions and fires. This conversion is technically possible but it will cost money to do.
It is also not possible to burn hydrogen in a methane gas hob, for much the same reasons, so again, money will have to be spent on the conversion. Similarly, for the network to supply hydrogen instead of methane will require major investment in the pipes, the valves, the infrastructure generally to make it 'no less safe than methane'. Which isn't very safe, of course. I haven't found any statistics on the number of people who are killed by gas every year - that's explosions, suicides, carbon monoxide poisoning. I'm not sure the data is collected, which is interesting. There are also health effects from the fumes from gas flames in homes that are barely studied in the UK but have been the subject of research elsewhere in the world.
So changing to hydrogen will be expensive.
Manufacturing hydrogen requires energy. To manufacture green hydrogen and then burn it in a boiler requires roughly x7 the amount of electricity as it would need to create the same amount of heat by just putting that electricity into a heat pump. Which would mean a) you have to pay for all that electricity in the cost of the hydrogen and b) we need to find space for x7 the amount of solar panels and wind turbines.
So hydrogen will not be cheap to buy.
So it's expensive and dangerous. If someone today had come up with the idea of piping explosive, toxic gas into everyone's homes, I seriously doubt we'd all be going 'oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea'. Why then would we invest in hydrogen for anything except the uses for which we can't use electricity directly? I can imagine listed buildings owned by people with very deep pockets may be heated by hydrogen boilers, and hydrogen fuel cells for HGVs and buses. But ordinary houses and ordinary cars? It'll be MUCH cheaper for you and for the country as a whole to use electricity.
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
While confirming on the phone our determined interest in having gas installed, the chap from British Gas issued a word of caution,
”You do realise you cannot have gas until the pipes are laid, don’t you?”
”What!!? Can’t you send it out through the post?”
They showed a long queue at a petrol station. They then carried out several of the, "how did you feel?" type interviews they like to do, with athletes having just finished a race whilst still gasping for breath, with several drivers in the queue, choosing of course, only the most volatile. Mostly, those who obviously by their accents likely weren't born in this country, given their accent, so weren't used to queuing for anything.
If you'd turned up at the filling station and there had been no fuel, knew that the BBC had known about shortages but not told anyone, you'd now be banging on about State Censorship and not doing their job.
And was it really ALL down to the BBC? Didn't the whole media jump on the same band wagon?