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🦀CURMUDGEONS' CORNER 9 🦀

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  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    If you google 'Black Country and racism' you'll see there's  lot of confusion and misiniformation out there .... as @wild edges said, websites have to be incredibly careful ... if something is perceived as racist (even if that is not the history of the term) it can cause a lot of trouble for that website. 

    As I said, "... We all make assumptions based on our own knowledge and experience, and sometimes we draw the wrong conclusion.  If there wasn’t so much vile racism about people might not be quite so on the alert for it. ..."

    Do none of you remember the racist jokes told by some 'comedians' back in the 60s/70s about the Black Country and some of the folk who lived there?  Vile.   Of course people are sensitive. 


    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • YviestevieYviestevie Posts: 7,066
    I absolutely remember the 70's Dove and I agree totally with what you say about it.  I am firmly against racism in any form but I am also against changing Baa Baa Black Sheep to Baa Baa Woolly Sheep.  There's being sensitive and being ridiculous.  I don't like getting into arguements at the best of times and I especially dislike letting anything like this spoil the atmosphere on this great website so I'm bowing out of this discussion gracefully.
    Hi from Kingswinford in the West Midlands
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    Totally agree with you @Yviestevie and the last thing I want to do is argue ... just to politely put my point across. :)

    I'm not in favour of changing Baa Baa Black Sheep or any of that stuff at all ... but if people are unaware of the origins of names and phrases, and if their personal experience is that black is used as a pejorative term, we shouldn't be surprised or blame them for being sensitive.  That's all I'm saying. There's more to history than place names. 

    The Black Country got it's name because of the pollution of the Industrial Revolution which had appalling effects on the health and life expectancy of the working people who lived there (not the factory owners of course ... they didn't live downwind) 

    https://historywm.com/podcasts/how-industrial-pollution-affected-the-lives-of-black-country-folk ... it's not really a term that should be glorified ... acknowledged as part of history yes, but we should be awareof it's continuing impact

    https://theconversation.com/air-pollution-in-victorian-era-britain-its-effects-on-health-now-revealed-87208

    just as we should be aware of the continuing impact of the slave trade on the decendents of those who were personally involved.

    That's all I'm going to say.



    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • BigladBiglad Posts: 3,265
    The pendulum always seems to swing too far these days. The roots of racism need to be tackled rather than assaulting our language to obliterate the use of words that, in context, should cause no offence to any sane individual. Locally, the Britannia coconutters are the centre of much discussion/outrage. Previously perceived as a joyous celebration of coal-mining heritage which boosts the local economy. Now on the verge of being banned because the participants blacken their faces to replicate the colour of the miners faces. I really don't think that type of thing goes very far towards solving the problem.
    East Lancs
  • B3B3 Posts: 27,505
    I think we should stop calling people black or white and accept that everyone is on the beige to dark brown spectrum. I've never met a truly white person or a truly black person.
    I realise that the black/ white issue is about much more than actual colour, but at least we would cease to describe people as if they were polar opposites.
    In London. Keen but lazy.
  • wild edgeswild edges Posts: 10,497
    edited August 2020
    The thing is though it can be hard to tell what is genuinely controversial these days. The racist tabloids drumming up hate by telling everyone that Baa Baa Black Sheep is being banned by 'PC nutjobs' etc and the internet shit-stirrers making up false stories of outrage, both probably done to keep people from siding with genuine calls for equality. Most of the time BAME people aren't asking to be given a job they didn't earn but want the equality to be able to earn the job in the first place. This culture of oversensitivity benefits the racists more than anything and the people genuinely campaigning for change get as frustrated with the obvious diversion tactics as everyone else does.
    If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
  • ObelixxObelixx Posts: 30,090
    edited August 2020
    It's happening in Belgium too @Biglad where Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) traditionallya companies St Nicholas on December 6th when children get their prezzies.  Good kids get toys and sweets.  Naughty kids get a lump of coal from Zwarte Piet who has a blackened face because he was a coal miner.   No coal mining for decades now so people think he's African and it's therefore racist for white chaps to blacken their face for the St Nicholas festivities in offices, work places, churches.....

    Since I'm here being all historical I shall just point out that Africans were selling each other for centuries before the Portuguese arrived down the west coast and started what people now think of as "The Slave Trade".   They still do tho it's more hidden these days but just look at the tales of Nigerians conned into going to the UK and ending us as domestic slaves or child slavery in the form of child soldiers and children working in cocoa plantations and mines digging up minerals for batteries for low emission cars and so on.  Don't forget Zanzibar either and the east coast slave trade to feed the Arabian market.

    I am not, in any way, condoning slavery or racism, just saying slavery was an African institution for centuries before the "white" man arrived to take advantage.
    Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
    "The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
    Plato
  • wild edgeswild edges Posts: 10,497
    My youngest boy is wearing this shirt today. It's Joules branded and I checked the website and it's not a knockoff. It was a hand-me-down from a friend so I can't really complain.

    If you can keep your head, while those around you are losing theirs, you may not have grasped the seriousness of the situation.
  • DovefromaboveDovefromabove Posts: 88,147
    edited August 2020
    I know I said I would say no more on this but I can’t let that go without remarking that slavery wasn’t  purely an ‘African institution’ ... the Romans had slaves ... whether they were treated as abhorrently as those who died in the holds of the European slavers‘ ships or those on the plantations of the American south and in the Caribbean I’m not sure ... what little reading I’ve done on the subject leads me to believe that they weren’t ... and it seem normal for them to have been able to earn their freedom 

    Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.





  • KT53KT53 Posts: 9,016
    What I now find interesting is that the whole topic has been deleted from the FB group, rather than the mod apologising for getting it so wrong.  Speaks volumes!
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