My point is that just having the vaccines didn’t stop me being ill and infecting others and so why am I protecting others by having the vaccine? I can infect anyone and if they have chosen not to have the vaccine and then get really poorly that’s hardly my fault. I think I am as safe around unvaccinated people as I am around the vaccinated ones. Therefore I don’t ask anyone to have a medical procedure they don’t want and I don’t question their reasons. My vaccine may or may not have protected me. It clearly doesn’t protect others and therefore others having the vaccine won’t protect me. I don’t approve of the actions of anti vaxxers but it’s their choice not to have it and I don’t blame anyone for not trusting this government.
My understanding is that if you are fully vaccinated and still have Covid, you will carry less of a viral load and therefore be less infectious to others than if you were unvaccinated.
Putting it simply it is more likely that unvaccinated people will infect others than vaccinated folk will.
If I’m wrong in this I hope @punkdoc will correct me.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
I haven't seen any data whether there's a correlation between the number of no-shows and the number of cases in an area. You can't be vaccinated if you have covid and then the same problem with not being able to cancel applies.
I think it's actually relatively easy to 'draw a line'. To follow the hillwalker having an accident analogy, someone who wears the right footwear, has decent clothing, checked the weather forecast, has a map and knows how to use it, has let someone know where they are and when they expect to be back could still have an accident. But someone who goes out in flip flops and a T shirt is not taking the most basic precautions to protect themselves from the environment, and therefore should be charged for the helicopter sent to get them down when they break their leg.
Of course, unvaccinated people can wear masks to try to limit the risk to others of their personal choice. Sadly most of the anti-vaxers are also against masks.
Gardening on the edge of Exmoor, in Devon
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Having the vaccine doesn't stop you being able to infect others @debs64 if you are unlucky enough to meet someone carrying the bug but it does stop you, and every other vaccinated person, having a serious and potentially life changing infection as well as using up precious health service resources.
Being unvaccinated is as stupid as trying to cross the M25 on foot or driving a vehicle without a safety belt whilst using a hands on mobile phone. Dangerous to the individual and every poor sod in the vicinity.
@BenCotto having complications in pregnancy is not comparable, nor is dementia in footballers except that now the link has been shown, any footballer who continues to head the ball needs his or her head examined before it gets to the dementia stage and there should be immediate rule changes for all sporting bodies and coaches!
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
I wonder if the reason why you caught Covid, @debs64, might have had something to do with the length of time since you had your second jab? Obviously all the science about this is new, but as I understand it, the reason for giving the booster is that immunity wanes with time. Your "boosted" colleague was very unlucky to catch the virus herself though, and produce enough virus for you to catch it from her.
The statistics do show that having the full course of vaccine does make it much less likely that you'll catch Covid, pass it on, or be seriously ill with it - but it doesn't give 100% protection.
I hope you and your fiance are both fully recovered now!
Since 2019 I've lived in east Clare, in the west of Ireland.
My fiancé was called for his booster while he had covid. He was very unwell. I worked with the public and travelled on buses throughout the first wave then had both vaccines when they became available then I caught covid from a colleague who was triple jabbed and gave it to my fiancé so I honestly don’t see any rhyme or reason to this virus. Almost everyone I know who has had the virus has had it after their vaccines so it doesn’t inspire much confidence. I was not very poorly at all. Just the luck of the draw I guess. My point is that if vaccinated people can catch and spread the virus and they clearly can then why all the discrimination against the unvaccinated?
As I said … it’s to do with the reduced viral load carried by those who have been vaccinated. They are less infectious than those who have Covid who have not been vaccinated.
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Diseases caused by long term habits such as smoking, excess drinking, obesity take a long time - usually - to develop and become critical so they don't overload hospital facilities or infect staff and take them out of service.
Covid takes seconds to become infected and can be a fast killer or handicapper but such serious consequences can be avoided or at least mitigated by having the vaccine so to refuse to have it is just perverse, careless and inconsiderate.
We know from the annual behaviour of flu viruses that some people will have no symptoms at all, many will have a mild illness but others will become seriously ill and die or have serious side effects and we know the flu vaccine needs tweaking every year for likely mutations. I haven't seen any anti flu vaxxers about or people complaining about having to have the jab each year.
You are comparing obesity with covid and stating that if you are obese then the healthcare system will not be at risk of being overloaded because activity that results from obesity is profiled in a different way compared to activity presenting that is relating to covid.That position is a cop out and you know it.
Obesity is one of the main causes of presentation to the healthcare system in the western world. I am not going to start talking about some of other main causes such as alcoholism and drug use that are endemic in western society that costs healthcare systems enormous proportions of their budget every year. The healthcare system has become so habituated to dealing with the results of problems such as obesity over the last 100 years and certainly since the NHS was set up in 1946 that it has adapted to this state of affairs, much in same the way the healthcare system will become adapted to dealing with patients that present WITH covid, during the coming years.
Obesity (for example) is the elephant in the room that nobody really wants to talk about because to do so will raise awkward questions and challenge peoples absolute right to make choices in a left wing democracy, eg absolutely nothing can interfere with my right be be obese, if I so choose, together with the lack of corresponding accountability for that choice. The insinuation is that if I am obese it is ok to cost the healthcare system tens of billions in treating my various issues, it's taxpayers money, but hey that's ok because it is my right to be obese but in a strange turn being unvaccinated will be tut-tutted at.
Equally I can be an alcoholic if I choose. etc. You get the idea.... Targeting the unvaccinated as a scapegoat is an easy cop out because you have a group to point the finger at without really having the correct understanding of why you are doing so other than some headlines in the daily mail and a few local newspapers.
PS I am double vaccinated and have received my booster this week.
A contrary viewpoint for you to consider @thrxvs is that the obese, the drug and alcohol abusers, the smokers etc typically die younger than they would otherwise have done. That means that they take less out of the national pension pot, claim fewer benefits that go to the elderly and clearly make no demands on the NHS when they are (prematurely) dead.
Perhaps these groups are to be regarded as an economic asset. By the way, I have not looked into this and have no evidence to back up this position but I just put it to you as a devil’s advocate.
Posts
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
I think it's actually relatively easy to 'draw a line'. To follow the hillwalker having an accident analogy, someone who wears the right footwear, has decent clothing, checked the weather forecast, has a map and knows how to use it, has let someone know where they are and when they expect to be back could still have an accident. But someone who goes out in flip flops and a T shirt is not taking the most basic precautions to protect themselves from the environment, and therefore should be charged for the helicopter sent to get them down when they break their leg.
Of course, unvaccinated people can wear masks to try to limit the risk to others of their personal choice. Sadly most of the anti-vaxers are also against masks.
“It's still magic even if you know how it's done.”
Being unvaccinated is as stupid as trying to cross the M25 on foot or driving a vehicle without a safety belt whilst using a hands on mobile phone. Dangerous to the individual and every poor sod in the vicinity.
@BenCotto having complications in pregnancy is not comparable, nor is dementia in footballers except that now the link has been shown, any footballer who continues to head the ball needs his or her head examined before it gets to the dementia stage and there should be immediate rule changes for all sporting bodies and coaches!
The statistics do show that having the full course of vaccine does make it much less likely that you'll catch Covid, pass it on, or be seriously ill with it - but it doesn't give 100% protection.
I hope you and your fiance are both fully recovered now!
Gardening in Central Norfolk on improved gritty moraine over chalk ... free-draining.
Perhaps these groups are to be regarded as an economic asset. By the way, I have not looked into this and have no evidence to back up this position but I just put it to you as a devil’s advocate.