Interesting indeed Goldilocks. We have just started work to renovate our barn and have decided to go the energy saving route. We are currently having the roof insulated from the outside as this is more efficient, apparently, than just slapping panels of insulation under the beams. The sllates will then be put back and a full bank of PV panels fitted to generate up to 10,000 watts a year. Then we get the holes bashed out for the new windows and the walls will be insulated from the outside to a thickness of 6'/15cms. Underfloor insuation and heating follows with a heat exchange pump to drive that.
We won't have any energy bills in there apart from logs for a proper fire or log burner and we should have almost no electricity bills in the existing house part. Just continuing oil for the existing central heating installed 20 years ago. It's all going to cost more than we paid for the whol building 21 years ago but will be worth it.
Meanwhile, there are applications to surround our very windy village with over 80 monster wind turbines which are so cost ineffective, so intrusive on the environment and eye and so bad for migrating birds of which we have many, some rare, that I wonder just where politicians and finance ministers especially have their heads and hands.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
Typical! We have a nest of 13 whoppers on the edge of the village strung along the E411 motorway that runs south to Luxembourg. When there is no wind at all they'll have half turning and burning grid electricity. Who do they think they are kidding?
In the old days, this area had loads of windmills for grinding corn and the locals know all about real wind and fake wind. Every time a new set of turbines goes up they're bigger than the last lot and they're getting closer and closer to habitation and the main party pushing them is Ecolo who are supposed to want to preserve the environment and wildlife habitats. Far more cost effective to subsidise home insulation for all and reduce energy consumption than give susbidies and unsustainable profits for a few wind energy companies and constructors.
Vendée - 20kms from Atlantic coast.
"The price good men (and women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men (and women)."
Sorry to upset the general consensus that wind turbines are the work of beelzebub, I rather like them. There are three large ones I can see taking small boy to school, and we always look out for them We have another 30 that are going up this side of the motorway, that will allegedly provide 30% of the electricity requirement for Rotherham. There were lots of objections to them, largely from the villages where the sons and daughters of the 'original' villagers can't afford to live any more, and where some of the old terraces get bought up and bulldozed and another Chav manor gets built.
What would you rather have:
A ) An electricity supply that's not reliable
30 Wind turbines in the middle of nowhere
C) A nuclear power station on your doorstep
I don't want nuclear, but at the moment it provides a significant proportion of our electricity needs. I have a very old car that gets patched up from bits of dead car, and runs on homebrew biodiesel, made from oil destined for landfill, yet I get accused of having a gas guzzling chelsea tractor by idiots in coal-fired piouses. My house has as many solar panels as it can accomodate. I compost most of my compostible stuff.
I have two children, and I'd like to leave the earth in a bit better state than I found it. Not everyone does, too many are bothered about what they can see from their window as they sip their G&T.
When the wind doesn't blow, something else needs to step in. But at least that "something else" doesn't need to be burning fossil fuels all of the time, just some of the time.
The wind turbines in the sea are practically invisible - but they are harnessing one of the greatest resources this island has to offer.
The ones at Skegness are VERY visible from the beach. This photo shows only a few. There are 160 - I counted them - and all as close as these practically as far as the eye can see from left to right!
Exactly, Chicky! What we need is pragmatism rather than blind ideology. Right now the only positive movement to address the looming power crisis with lights going out is thousands of wind turbines being erected, many in areas that cannot be good for the environment, such as Skegness. No nuclear power stations for years, coal powered stations about to shut down with no gas power stations to replace them. We will have to import electricity from France and even more gas from our reliable friend, Russia by 2015, electricity prices will rocket, many will be driven into fuel poverty, and then everyone will blame the Government, and it will take 15 - 20 years of rushed investment to put it right.
Some leading politician said that Politics is about choosing the lesser of two or more evils. For core energy supply we are going to need nuclear sooner or later - we are going to need gas (from fracking- hopefully we can crack carbon capture but we need fracking in any event) and we will use renewables as much as possible as a backup. But unless we get strong government and unpopular decisions forced through, we are in for energy / economic misery over the next decade.
I actually think we are in total agreement (other than the fact that wind turbines are rubbish) - and I spend my working life trying to improve the situation. Sometimes it feels like banging head against immovable wall !
Gold1locks - why is it bad that the wind turbines are off the coast of Skegness - not wanting to pick a fight, just wondered why it was especially bad that they are there? There are also lots of them further down the coast, near Yarmouth. Surely it's better that they are out there, rather than inland where they'll be more controversial?
I try to use energy responsibly, as we only have a limited amount of fossil fuels, and we aren't producing enough coal to run our power stations - the stuff we import is rubbish, and has to be mixed with Yorkshire or Welsh coal to actually burn properly! Also, even when it's windy, the turbines have to be kept ticking over, you can't just turn a power station off. It's a bit of a black art, as during the evenings, or especially when there's a big event like a royal wedding, the bods in charge of the national grid have to predict useage, and bring extra power stations on-line to cope with the surge in demand during ad-breaks in programmes. I also used to work in a steelworks, that used a very large electric-arc furnace to melt steel. During the winter we used to have 'peak loading' at certain times, eg between 5 and 6pm when people were getting home from work and starting tea, there'd be a surge in demand for power. The company would normally get their electricity dead cheap normally, and then during peak loading they'd be charged 100 times the normal rate, so everything non-essential got turned off, monitors, printers, we weren't even allowed to boil the kettle - you made sure you'd got a drink 5 minutes before peak loading. That was to help keep demand down, as it would be on particularly cold days during winter, when they didn't want to have to bring another power station online.
Some of the coal fired power stations on the trent have not been totally decommisioned, but mothballed. At some point we'll need to start opencasting, or reopen some of the deep mines as the coal is still down there, but geologically difficult (and WAS uneconomic) to get out.
All people can do is try and lessen their demand for energy. That includes wall and loft insulation, solar panels, heat exhchange pumps, low energy appliances and lightbulbs, turning things off or down, and putting a jumper on rather than turning the central heating up. We have/do all of these, apart from a heat exchange pump, which is the next thing on my list to save up for. It does annoy me when those in the house at the back wander round in their T shirts with a gas patio heater on full blast.
Posts
Interesting indeed Goldilocks. We have just started work to renovate our barn and have decided to go the energy saving route. We are currently having the roof insulated from the outside as this is more efficient, apparently, than just slapping panels of insulation under the beams. The sllates will then be put back and a full bank of PV panels fitted to generate up to 10,000 watts a year. Then we get the holes bashed out for the new windows and the walls will be insulated from the outside to a thickness of 6'/15cms. Underfloor insuation and heating follows with a heat exchange pump to drive that.
We won't have any energy bills in there apart from logs for a proper fire or log burner and we should have almost no electricity bills in the existing house part. Just continuing oil for the existing central heating installed 20 years ago. It's all going to cost more than we paid for the whol building 21 years ago but will be worth it.
Meanwhile, there are applications to surround our very windy village with over 80 monster wind turbines which are so cost ineffective, so intrusive on the environment and eye and so bad for migrating birds of which we have many, some rare, that I wonder just where politicians and finance ministers especially have their heads and hands.
Just come back from walking along the beach at Skegness (don't ask!). Saw over 200 windmills about 2 miles out to sea. Only 60 or so were turning!
Typical! We have a nest of 13 whoppers on the edge of the village strung along the E411 motorway that runs south to Luxembourg. When there is no wind at all they'll have half turning and burning grid electricity. Who do they think they are kidding?
In the old days, this area had loads of windmills for grinding corn and the locals know all about real wind and fake wind. Every time a new set of turbines goes up they're bigger than the last lot and they're getting closer and closer to habitation and the main party pushing them is Ecolo who are supposed to want to preserve the environment and wildlife habitats. Far more cost effective to subsidise home insulation for all and reduce energy consumption than give susbidies and unsustainable profits for a few wind energy companies and constructors.
Sorry to upset the general consensus that wind turbines are the work of beelzebub, I rather like them. There are three large ones I can see taking small boy to school, and we always look out for them We have another 30 that are going up this side of the motorway, that will allegedly provide 30% of the electricity requirement for Rotherham. There were lots of objections to them, largely from the villages where the sons and daughters of the 'original' villagers can't afford to live any more, and where some of the old terraces get bought up and bulldozed and another Chav manor gets built.
What would you rather have:
A ) An electricity supply that's not reliable
C) A nuclear power station on your doorstep
I don't want nuclear, but at the moment it provides a significant proportion of our electricity needs. I have a very old car that gets patched up from bits of dead car, and runs on homebrew biodiesel, made from oil destined for landfill, yet I get accused of having a gas guzzling chelsea tractor by idiots in coal-fired piouses. My house has as many solar panels as it can accomodate. I compost most of my compostible stuff.
I have two children, and I'd like to leave the earth in a bit better state than I found it. Not everyone does, too many are bothered about what they can see from their window as they sip their G&T.
When the wind blows - its power for free.
When the wind doesn't blow, something else needs to step in. But at least that "something else" doesn't need to be burning fossil fuels all of the time, just some of the time.
The wind turbines in the sea are practically invisible - but they are harnessing one of the greatest resources this island has to offer.
As my teenagers would say - what's not to like !
The ones at Skegness are VERY visible from the beach. This photo shows only a few. There are 160 - I counted them - and all as close as these practically as far as the eye can see from left to right!
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/06/30/1063076_218a3f0f.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1063076&h=480&w=640&sz=124&tbnid=NZ-NVGbzDyDQGM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=126&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dskegness%2Bwind%2Bturbines%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=skegness+wind+turbines&usg=__9dx0N9nj1PayliDU0SuAaX-wmLA=&docid=ow2J1pdsuVwF6M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TrdzUYHnJIqM0wXUqYCIAw&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAw&dur=591.
And it's not free. the cost of manufacturing and maintaining them.
And when the wind is too strong you can get this:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/08/article-2071633-0F1B4D7000000578-392_964x642.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2071633/UK-weather-Wind-turbine-EXPLODES-hurricane-force-gusts-batter-Northern-Britain.html&h=642&w=964&sz=67&tbnid=TkE_YonSVTesxM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwind%2Bturbine%2Bon%2Bfire%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wind+turbine+on+fire&usg=__z1mdipDCiscR4uXM0HnpdEe64r0=&docid=eT5Jv_sqREOO6M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a7hzUe_2HIit0QW_4ICQBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAA&dur=573
And when it's too cold they have to shut them down and heat them using electricity to stop them freezing up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345439/Customers-face-huge-wind-farms-dont-work-cold.html
And a coal fired power station doesn't need to be manufactured or maintained ??
And doesn't occasionally trip over ??
Wind power is not perfect - not many things are.
Check out the plans for Dogger Bank - they will be 10 miles from the coast. Maybe that will be far enough away .....
Exactly, Chicky! What we need is pragmatism rather than blind ideology. Right now the only positive movement to address the looming power crisis with lights going out is thousands of wind turbines being erected, many in areas that cannot be good for the environment, such as Skegness. No nuclear power stations for years, coal powered stations about to shut down with no gas power stations to replace them. We will have to import electricity from France and even more gas from our reliable friend, Russia by 2015, electricity prices will rocket, many will be driven into fuel poverty, and then everyone will blame the Government, and it will take 15 - 20 years of rushed investment to put it right.
Some leading politician said that Politics is about choosing the lesser of two or more evils. For core energy supply we are going to need nuclear sooner or later - we are going to need gas (from fracking- hopefully we can crack carbon capture but we need fracking in any event) and we will use renewables as much as possible as a backup. But unless we get strong government and unpopular decisions forced through, we are in for energy / economic misery over the next decade.
I actually think we are in total agreement (other than the fact that wind turbines are rubbish) - and I spend my working life trying to improve the situation. Sometimes it feels like banging head against immovable wall !
Gold1locks - why is it bad that the wind turbines are off the coast of Skegness - not wanting to pick a fight, just wondered why it was especially bad that they are there? There are also lots of them further down the coast, near Yarmouth. Surely it's better that they are out there, rather than inland where they'll be more controversial?
I try to use energy responsibly, as we only have a limited amount of fossil fuels, and we aren't producing enough coal to run our power stations - the stuff we import is rubbish, and has to be mixed with Yorkshire or Welsh coal to actually burn properly! Also, even when it's windy, the turbines have to be kept ticking over, you can't just turn a power station off. It's a bit of a black art, as during the evenings, or especially when there's a big event like a royal wedding, the bods in charge of the national grid have to predict useage, and bring extra power stations on-line to cope with the surge in demand during ad-breaks in programmes. I also used to work in a steelworks, that used a very large electric-arc furnace to melt steel. During the winter we used to have 'peak loading' at certain times, eg between 5 and 6pm when people were getting home from work and starting tea, there'd be a surge in demand for power. The company would normally get their electricity dead cheap normally, and then during peak loading they'd be charged 100 times the normal rate, so everything non-essential got turned off, monitors, printers, we weren't even allowed to boil the kettle - you made sure you'd got a drink 5 minutes before peak loading. That was to help keep demand down, as it would be on particularly cold days during winter, when they didn't want to have to bring another power station online.
Some of the coal fired power stations on the trent have not been totally decommisioned, but mothballed. At some point we'll need to start opencasting, or reopen some of the deep mines as the coal is still down there, but geologically difficult (and WAS uneconomic) to get out.
All people can do is try and lessen their demand for energy. That includes wall and loft insulation, solar panels, heat exhchange pumps, low energy appliances and lightbulbs, turning things off or down, and putting a jumper on rather than turning the central heating up. We have/do all of these, apart from a heat exchange pump, which is the next thing on my list to save up for. It does annoy me when those in the house at the back wander round in their T shirts with a gas patio heater on full blast.