The old roses which I have been reluctantly removing are in a garden which I have known of for over 20 years but only been gardening in for 3. To my knowledge these roses were planted at least 15 years before I knew this garden. So I'm assuming they were put in the ground at least 35 years ago. Each one had between 2 and 4 1" thick dormant brown woody dormant stems which seemed to have been cut off about 6" high and left as they were. From this I thought there must have been continual rejuvenation work on these roses over a period of years.
Second factor: The garden has much changed since these roses were planted. Each was planted only a few inches in from a surrounding low stone wall. Also, there are now trees growing to a height of about 15-20ft near the roses which have substantial canopies which would not have been the case when the roses were planted. So none of them are in full-sun all day and having heard about 'toxic drip' from trees I'm wondering if this is part and parcel of the consistent mildew. The mildew always appears when the tree canopies are mature round about mid-May.
Do these sound like reasonable assumptions to make as contributing factors to the weakness and failure of the old roses? I'd probably add to that the fact that I have been pruning them to a third of growth in early Spring each year. Feeding them as soon as leaves appear and feeding again round about mid-June each year. Which may also have been a contributing factor to their demise? Pruning too much so that the new stems were too weak to support the 'one bud per stem' outcome - as well as there always being stems which produced no buds at all?
I think I've tried as much as my level of confidence has allowed, but to be honest, I'm tired trying each year to improve them and not succeeding. For sanity's sake I'm tempted to dig them all up. Getting rid really does bring on a dose of guilts though.
I inherited 8 roses earlier this year from a family member which were part of the old family home and am on tenterhooks to look after them well. They are in a different bed. Won't know until they bloom what they are - so I wait in hope that they will fair better in my inexperienced hands.
Naki - I'm sorry if I seem to have hijacked your thread here. I'm terrible for doing this if I see someone posting a problem similar to mine - I jump at the chance to ask questions whenever someone with experience appears on the thread and seems to know the answers to the problems. Sorry about that.
Right, ideally roses should have about six hours of light to thrive although of course some will tolerate shade better than others. But these are in the minority. Today I was in a pub garden in Twickenham (Father;s Day you see) and saw a nice white rose (perhaps 'Iceberg') in bloom but in the shade of a massive tree. The tree not only shades your old roses but deprives them of water and neutrician.
What would I do? Well for me all old roses are worth saving no matter how decrepid they are. Why not wait until October/November when they start to become dormant, then dig each one up with the largest ball of soil you can manage (OK, rose roots aren't a tightly bunched mass and most soil will fall away), and move them to another part of the garden. Reduce height to one third, water well and regularly, and feed. Take a cutting or two as well and fingers crossed, in the spring, you may well see new signs of life from the parent plant or the cuttings.
Paul N: Many thanks for the reply and advice. Where it is possible I will be attempting to save what I can by probably moving one or two.
Naki: think you should know I'm not a 'he' but a 'she' - and Paul N. - to inject more humour - the last 2 oldies I dug up were a three-hour solitary battle which involved ripping up those roots which had worked their way under that little stone wall to the garden next door. Some time later, whilst pondering the advantages of 'Deep Heat' versus it's not so jolly aroma - I could almost bend down far enough to clearly study 2 foot lengths of root in detail knowing full well there will still 'remains' in the ground which I had to 'fight' another day. For one, I was reduced to using an electric saw! But that is the one I now regret as it was in the front garden, had beautiful blooms but was 8 foot high, with a 2" thick stem - had beautiful blooms, but was intruding on the public pavement and another garden. Half of the root is still in the ground as it was completely under a wall and considered unsafe etc.
This one I will always regret. I don't know what it was - but wondered if it was 'Masquerade'. And sacrilege - I didn't have time to take cuttings.
'Masquerade'? It certainly looks like it. I'd take a couple of flowers and visit your local nursery or garden centre and compare them.
I'm not immune to making mistakes though. Last year I found my 'Zepherine Drouhin' growing through a thicket of jasmine and honeysuckle and although it was September I went against all advice and my better judgement, dug her up and transplanted her. The single long branch was about 8ft long. In spite of all the water and care in the world, she progressively passed away. Stupid impatience on my part and the first transplanted rose I'd lost in years. 'Albertine' now in her third position is growing exceedingly well with lots of flowers and buds. I cannot say no to orphans either. My son had a standard Rosa glauca growing within inches of his back door, and the tending hands of his children, and he implored me to take it away. It's now doing nicely at the bottom of the garden.
BTW 'neutrician' should read 'nutrients'. Sunday was a looooong day
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Paul N: Can I pick your brains here?
The old roses which I have been reluctantly removing are in a garden which I have known of for over 20 years but only been gardening in for 3. To my knowledge these roses were planted at least 15 years before I knew this garden. So I'm assuming they were put in the ground at least 35 years ago. Each one had between 2 and 4 1" thick dormant brown woody dormant stems which seemed to have been cut off about 6" high and left as they were. From this I thought there must have been continual rejuvenation work on these roses over a period of years.
Second factor: The garden has much changed since these roses were planted. Each was planted only a few inches in from a surrounding low stone wall. Also, there are now trees growing to a height of about 15-20ft near the roses which have substantial canopies which would not have been the case when the roses were planted. So none of them are in full-sun all day and having heard about 'toxic drip' from trees I'm wondering if this is part and parcel of the consistent mildew. The mildew always appears when the tree canopies are mature round about mid-May.
Do these sound like reasonable assumptions to make as contributing factors to the weakness and failure of the old roses? I'd probably add to that the fact that I have been pruning them to a third of growth in early Spring each year. Feeding them as soon as leaves appear and feeding again round about mid-June each year. Which may also have been a contributing factor to their demise? Pruning too much so that the new stems were too weak to support the 'one bud per stem' outcome - as well as there always being stems which produced no buds at all?
I think I've tried as much as my level of confidence has allowed, but to be honest, I'm tired trying each year to improve them and not succeeding. For sanity's sake I'm tempted to dig them all up. Getting rid really does bring on a dose of guilts though.
I inherited 8 roses earlier this year from a family member which were part of the old family home and am on tenterhooks to look after them well. They are in a different bed. Won't know until they bloom what they are - so I wait in hope that they will fair better in my inexperienced hands.
Naki - I'm sorry if I seem to have hijacked your thread here. I'm terrible for doing this if I see someone posting a problem similar to mine - I jump at the chance to ask questions whenever someone with experience appears on the thread and seems to know the answers to the problems. Sorry about that.
Right, ideally roses should have about six hours of light to thrive although of course some will tolerate shade better than others. But these are in the minority. Today I was in a pub garden in Twickenham (Father;s Day you see) and saw a nice white rose (perhaps 'Iceberg') in bloom but in the shade of a massive tree. The tree not only shades your old roses but deprives them of water and neutrician.
What would I do? Well for me all old roses are worth saving no matter how decrepid they are. Why not wait until October/November when they start to become dormant, then dig each one up with the largest ball of soil you can manage (OK, rose roots aren't a tightly bunched mass and most soil will fall away), and move them to another part of the garden. Reduce height to one third, water well and regularly, and feed. Take a cutting or two as well and fingers crossed, in the spring, you may well see new signs of life from the parent plant or the cuttings.
Paul N: Many thanks for the reply and advice. Where it is possible I will be attempting to save what I can by probably moving one or two.
Naki: think you should know I'm not a 'he' but a 'she' - and Paul N. - to inject more humour - the last 2 oldies I dug up were a three-hour solitary battle which involved ripping up those roots which had worked their way under that little stone wall to the garden next door. Some time later, whilst pondering the advantages of 'Deep Heat' versus it's not so jolly aroma - I could almost bend down far enough to clearly study 2 foot lengths of root in detail knowing full well there will still 'remains' in the ground which I had to 'fight' another day. For one, I was reduced to using an electric saw! But that is the one I now regret as it was in the front garden, had beautiful blooms but was 8 foot high, with a 2" thick stem - had beautiful blooms, but was intruding on the public pavement and another garden. Half of the root is still in the ground as it was completely under a wall and considered unsafe etc.
This one I will always regret. I don't know what it was - but wondered if it was 'Masquerade'. And sacrilege - I didn't have time to take cuttings.
'Masquerade'? It certainly looks like it. I'd take a couple of flowers and visit your local nursery or garden centre and compare them.
I'm not immune to making mistakes though. Last year I found my 'Zepherine Drouhin' growing through a thicket of jasmine and honeysuckle and although it was September I went against all advice and my better judgement, dug her up and transplanted her. The single long branch was about 8ft long. In spite of all the water and care in the world, she progressively passed away. Stupid impatience on my part and the first transplanted rose I'd lost in years. 'Albertine' now in her third position is growing exceedingly well with lots of flowers and buds. I cannot say no to orphans either. My son had a standard Rosa glauca growing within inches of his back door, and the tending hands of his children, and he implored me to take it away. It's now doing nicely at the bottom of the garden.
BTW 'neutrician' should read 'nutrients'. Sunday was a looooong day
'Tender' not 'tending' (doh).