I think I have gone invisible. All that has been repeated here is what I posted.
And like waterbutts I have been growing and pruning Apple trees for more years than I care to think about and learned it from a professional Orchard man before I started.
The only thing I would diagree with (and that is just an opinion) is that summer pruning is for restricted shapes only. Well generally yes, but in this case the tree has been turned into a restricted shape so Winter pruning is not going to help. Summer pruning creates fruiting spures. Winter pruning makes new growth.
Sorry Berghill, but I didn't read your post you're right. However you say,
"The only thing I would diagree with ... is that summer pruning is for restricted shapes only ..., but in this case the tree has been turned into a restricted shape so Winter pruning is not going to help. Summer pruning creates fruiting spures. Winter pruning makes new growth."
I'm afriad you have also misunderstood pruning. Summer pruing restricts growth, rather than it is for restricted growth. The linguistic difference is slight but the horticultural difference is immense.
What you write is not wrong per se but you must use the right tool for the right job. To use a different analogy. You understand the nature and maths of a round hole and you understand the nature and maths of a square peg yet you are still trying to put that square peg in a round hole.
This tree has been badly hacked. The last thing you want to do with it is restrict it's growth further by pruining it as if it were a privet hedge, which is essentiall, all being exagerated, what you do with restriected growth trees. Sure you can prune it in the summer but not in the typical 'summer pruning' way. He needs to get back a good branch structure. He's not aiming for fruit production now on a tree that's been butchered. He needs to encourage a good structure again. When he's got that good structure then he can think about pruing for fruit spurs.
The reason I directed him to watch Stephen Hayes videos rather than read a load of text here is because pruing fruit trees can be extremely confusing to a new gardener. My partner still can't understand the basics of prruning after years of me trying to explain it. You have to A, want to really understand it, and then B, watch the expert. I realise I've not come across as very polite and I do apologise for that, however it makes me very frustrated when someone asks for help and gets bad advice. I'm sure you both do have years of expericence but years of experience doesn't always equate with good practice or good understanding. I've baked bread for well over 20 years and for most of that time doing the most basic of baking and was totally unaware of making the most horendous mistakes. Unless you watch someone who knows what they're doing it can be very hard to know you've been doing it wrong for all these years.
Me too Waterbutts. Obviously the 100 pounds each of Greensleeves, Crown Gold and Discovery were grown all wrong and I should have thrown them away. I will do that with the 200 or so pounds of Catshead and heaven knows how many of Ashmeads Kernel. And I will have to glue the Summer prunings of these tree back on so I can take them off in the correct way, for the correct reason at the correct time.
And while I am at it I had better get rid of the frozen Katja puree from the freezers.
I'm sure both of you are very good at watching trees grow. Just not so good at giving advice. Thankfully most fruit trees can still produce buckets full of fruit even with the worst treatment. There's a feral apple by the A1 that is so heavy with fruit every year it's a wonder it doesn't fall over.
Regarding bienniel bearing mentioned by waterbutts in the first reply, we used to have a row of three apple trees in cordons. Two were biennial bearing (and in synch with each other) and the third would bear fruit for two years and then miss one. Over a five year cycle we'd have a combination of masses of fruit in year one, less for years two three and four, and then masses again in year five.
Posts
Jim, look at my initial post. I said "get rid of it".
I have been growing apple trees with success for going on 60 years, I haven't just "read a book".
I think I have gone invisible. All that has been repeated here is what I posted.
And like waterbutts I have been growing and pruning Apple trees for more years than I care to think about and learned it from a professional Orchard man before I started.
The only thing I would diagree with (and that is just an opinion) is that summer pruning is for restricted shapes only. Well generally yes, but in this case the tree has been turned into a restricted shape so Winter pruning is not going to help. Summer pruning creates fruiting spures. Winter pruning makes new growth.
Sorry Berghill, but I didn't read your post you're right. However you say,
"The only thing I would diagree with ... is that summer pruning is for restricted shapes only ..., but in this case the tree has been turned into a restricted shape so Winter pruning is not going to help. Summer pruning creates fruiting spures. Winter pruning makes new growth."
I'm afriad you have also misunderstood pruning. Summer pruing restricts growth, rather than it is for restricted growth. The linguistic difference is slight but the horticultural difference is immense.
What you write is not wrong per se but you must use the right tool for the right job. To use a different analogy. You understand the nature and maths of a round hole and you understand the nature and maths of a square peg yet you are still trying to put that square peg in a round hole.
This tree has been badly hacked. The last thing you want to do with it is restrict it's growth further by pruining it as if it were a privet hedge, which is essentiall, all being exagerated, what you do with restriected growth trees. Sure you can prune it in the summer but not in the typical 'summer pruning' way. He needs to get back a good branch structure. He's not aiming for fruit production now on a tree that's been butchered. He needs to encourage a good structure again. When he's got that good structure then he can think about pruing for fruit spurs.
The reason I directed him to watch Stephen Hayes videos rather than read a load of text here is because pruing fruit trees can be extremely confusing to a new gardener. My partner still can't understand the basics of prruning after years of me trying to explain it. You have to A, want to really understand it, and then B, watch the expert. I realise I've not come across as very polite and I do apologise for that, however it makes me very frustrated when someone asks for help and gets bad advice. I'm sure you both do have years of expericence but years of experience doesn't always equate with good practice or good understanding. I've baked bread for well over 20 years and for most of that time doing the most basic of baking and was totally unaware of making the most horendous mistakes. Unless you watch someone who knows what they're doing it can be very hard to know you've been doing it wrong for all these years.
Well, 60 years wasted. I suppose I'd better get the Stephen Hayes video and pay attention this time.
Better bin those 30 kilos of apples I've got in the freezer, too. Inferior products obviously.
you put your apples in the freezer? That's where you're going wrong!
Sorry lusi83 I said 'him'. I didn't pay much attention to your suer name.
Me too Waterbutts. Obviously the 100 pounds each of Greensleeves, Crown Gold and Discovery were grown all wrong and I should have thrown them away. I will do that with the 200 or so pounds of Catshead and heaven knows how many of Ashmeads Kernel. And I will have to glue the Summer prunings of these tree back on so I can take them off in the correct way, for the correct reason at the correct time.
And while I am at it I had better get rid of the frozen Katja puree from the freezers.
Better luck next year, Berghill
I'm sure both of you are very good at watching trees grow. Just not so good at giving advice. Thankfully most fruit trees can still produce buckets full of fruit even with the worst treatment. There's a feral apple by the A1 that is so heavy with fruit every year it's a wonder it doesn't fall over.
Regarding bienniel bearing mentioned by waterbutts in the first reply, we used to have a row of three apple trees in cordons. Two were biennial bearing (and in synch with each other) and the third would bear fruit for two years and then miss one. Over a five year cycle we'd have a combination of masses of fruit in year one, less for years two three and four, and then masses again in year five.