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Climbing Flowers in Clay Soils

parypv63005parypv63005 Posts: 2
edited 13 February in Plants
Hi everyone,
I have a few questions regarding climbing flowers in clay soils and I'm hoping to get some feedback from this community.
Some background for context:
I have 2 raised flower beds (brick) in my garden that are ~1m apart. They are either side of a few steps that go down to the lower part of the garden (not a big level difference) and the beds are ~1m x 0.5m each.
I have purchased a steel arch to embed into each bed which will then arch over the top of the steps. 
My intention is to incorporate climbing flowers on either side that grows and travels along the arch.
However for various reasons I'm very wary of which plants to go for here. 
The soil is noticeably clay heavy and I've had 2 young lavenders die in them. I thought it was because lavender does not like to sit in waterlogged soil. Interestingly though, marigolds and 3/4 other varieties of flowers had no problem whatsoever growing in these same clay soils. I put lots of different seeds and small plants in and they thrived all summer long.
Around spring/summer, I've been adding some compost/coco coir/sand to help break the soil down and improve its drainage properties.
Then after some reading it seems I should just go for plants/flowers that are suitable for clay soils to save the time and effort of improving the soil which is a slow process in any case.
I came across this page on the RHS site: https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/for-places/clay-soils
Under Climbers & Wall Shrubs, there are some climbing flower suggestions. I am open to choosing any however these are my questions/observations:
  1. My arch is only a few metres tall; therefore I don't think I need a variety that has a massive ultimate height/width (10m/5m etc). Is my thinking right or wrong for this?
  2. The ultimate height/timeframe on RHS for all of these suggests that once these climbing flowers are planted they will grow back every year. Is this the case?
  3. I am hoping to plant something this spring so that it blooms in the summer. That's obviously a quick turnaround which I've seen is possible for climbing flowers in normal soil; but is there a way to tell whether any of the linked flowers would grow this quickly? The time to ultimate height can be several years or more. Does that mean choosing a taller plant variety will reach 2m height quicker? 
  4. Is it unrealistic to expect the arch to be covered in just a few months? Or is it more common to fill the sides and then every year it slowly covers the whole arch?
  5. I have issues with foxes digging up flower beds (less of an issue once a plant is getting established, more of an issue if I put seeds in directly); would growing some of these indoors and then transplanting be a problem? 
  6. Is it common or unusual to have 2 different varieties on either side of the arch? Or is it better sticking to one plant for the entirety of the arch?
Ultimately I do not mind which flower it is. Anything with a nice colour that smells nice as you walk under it would be good enough for me, particularly due to the constraints I have.
Unlike other hobbies I have, gardening is more tricky because I could take a stab at it and find the answers to my questions above the hard way but I'd potentially waste a year by doing so! Hence I thought I would get some advice here.
I'd appreciate any feedback on how I can do this successfully. 
Thanks!
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Posts

  • B3B3 Posts: 27,505
    Roses are happy in heavy clay if you add some organic matter.
    In London. Keen but lazy.
  • Busy-LizzieBusy-Lizzie Posts: 24,043
    I think the obvious choices would be roses as B3 says. Pretty flowers, colourful, scented. I would plant a rose on each side of the arch. There would be a limited height this year, maybe a metre and there should be flowers. If you buy a repeat flowerer they will flower again end of summer. They will be a lot taller next year with a lot more flowers.

    https://www.classicroses.co.uk/roses/climbing-roses/repeat_flowering-5_feet_to_10_feet_1_5m_to_3m-fragrant_1.html

    https://www.classicroses.co.uk/roses/rambler-repeat_flowering-fragrant_1-very_fragrant.html

    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/collections/ideal-for-arches
    Dordogne and Norfolk. Clay in Dordogne, sandy in Norfolk.
  • LunarSeaLunarSea Posts: 1,923
    Certain Clematis would be happy in clay soil and would complement the roses, using them as support. We have Clematis viticella 'Madame Julia Correvon' on either side of our arch and I recall having to break up the solid clay with a pick when I installed it.
    Clay soil - Cheshire/Derbyshire border

    I play with plants and soil and sometimes it's successful

  • GardenerSuzeGardenerSuze Posts: 5,692
    edited 14 February
    I have struggled with clematis in heavy clay soil infact I gave up growing them. @Lunersea has explained the necessity for breaking the soil fairly deeply for the roots to find their way down. I would add generous amounts of manure or soil conditioner . If roots remain just in the surface soil  they won't establish and  plants can die. 

    Viticella would be my choice too, or  Clematis Bill Mackenzie. All climbers need to form a good strong root system before starting to climb. I would buy plants of a good size. Tiny whips in 9cm pots will either be eaten by  slugs or take years to grow to a flowering size.
    Often sold but too small to plant directly into the ground.

    I have worked as a Gardener for 24 years. My latest garden is a new build garden on heavy clay.
  • punkdocpunkdoc Posts: 15,039
    Whilst you have struggled with Clematis in heavy clay, @GardenerSuze, I grow over 20 in  fairly heavy clay, without too many problems.
    How can you lie there and think of England
    When you don't even know who's in the team

    S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
  • FairygirlFairygirl Posts: 55,117
    I do too @punkdoc , but most are in raised beds, and those in the ground need the soil well amended first. Even then, some don't manage as well as others.
    I'm sure I read recently that you were looking forward to having Acteas @GardenerSuze, because you didn't have the right conditions for them before. I couldn't get my head round that because if it was too wet for clematis, it should be perfect for Acteas.  :)

    Amending the soil well, before putting plants in will pay dividends @parypv63005. With clematis, they're often acquired as small plants, rather than mature two or three year old ones, so bear that in mind if you get any from supermarkets or diy stores etc , as they'll benefit from being grown on , and potted on, for another year before planting out  :)  
    Bone meal, or Blood, Fish and Bone, is often used on planting woodier climbers or shrubs, but if you have foxes getting in, it's better to avoid that. Organic matter, plenty of it, is better, and will suit all climbers, as well as improving the soil. Other feeding may be needed later, depending on the plants you choose. Just be aware that many of the small flowered, early clematis don't like the richer, wetter conditions that the later, larger flowered ones like.  :)
    There's a huge range of colours, shapes and sizes of clems and roses, so take your time choosing, so that the end result is what you like. C. Etoile Violette and C. Rouge Cardinal cope with heavier, wetter soil no problem though.   :)
    It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....



    I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
  • B3B3 Posts: 27,505
    I have both types of clematis. They grow in clay without a problem. The soil never gets waterlogged, though. I chuck a handful of fertiliser at them in the spring, and that's their lot.
    In London. Keen but lazy.
  • LoxleyLoxley Posts: 5,698
    edited 14 February
    In a raised bed you can really add a lot of organic matter to dramatically improve the soil, and the fact of being raised should avoid drainage problems (so long as the water can get out!) I think clematis should be fine, as they will be able to root into the clay to provide their water needs, but the raised bed should mean they aren't sitting in a sump.

    Type 3 clematis are good with roses as you cut back to near ground level in winter, and this also allows you to get to the roses to prune them.
    "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour". 
  • FairygirlFairygirl Posts: 55,117
    B3 said:
     The soil never gets waterlogged, though. 
    Our soil never fully dries out to any extent - that's the big difference. We might get a couple of inches at the top being dry, and that's only been in the most recent summers, but that's about it. 
    The early ones  I have in raised beds are either in among big shrubs, and right against the fence or wall, or they're in very small beds, where there's very little chance of excess water getting in. C. alpina Constance is a good example of that. The bed is around a foot in height, and a few feet long, but only about 6 inches in depth.  I can't grow the koreanas for love nor money, even in the best sites I can give them, and even in containers some are quite difficult and can easily get too wet. Even the later, larger ones that are in the ground are among shrubs etc, and I have to be sure the soil and drainage is decent enough. 
    That's just how it is, and I'm used to it, although I still experiment now and again.  :)
    It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....



    I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
  • RedwingRedwing Posts: 1,511
    B3 said:
    Roses are happy in heavy clay if you add some organic matter.
    I was going to suggest roses too.  They do well in clay and such a big choice. 
    Based in Sussex, I garden to encourage as many birds to my garden as possible.
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