We managed to get more done on this today. More paving slabs up and the cement underneath broken and removed. A car load of cement removed so far so we got that to the tip.
Counting outwards from the house, slabs 5-8 are laid on cement with sand underneath and the clay subsoil under that. Slabs 9-10 were laid on soil (maybe originally sand as well?). Slab 4 and I suspect 1-3 have cement, then sand, then a proper hardcore base and I didn't get down far enough to find the clay. Maybe those first 2.4m (4 slabs) originally had a different patio laid by someone who did a more thorough job of preparing the base? The rest of the patio has more uneven levels.
Slabs 5-10 soil is pretty good considering the amount of sand in there and that the soil is only from the edges, the cracks and what the worms have incorporated. I think this will be a good base for topsoil and organic matter:
Under slab 4 there is no soil, just sand and hardcore. I haven't been able to remove some of the big bits about 15cm below this. Maybe once slabs 1-3 are up it might be easier? If the hardcore doesn't come out then I will need to plan carefully what and how to plant. However the passionflower and fuchsia are planted just at the top of this photo and thriving. The other side of the fence is just stone on top of concrete house foundations that are at least a metre deep or deep hardcore under their patio so they don't have any soil to access there, it is all what they have rooted into under our patio.
It is exciting seeing it progress and it will be lovely when it can be planted up in the future. For now it is getting the ground uncovered and then getting topsoil and organic matter delivered and on. We bought a wheelbarrow today which has already been useful for moving cement to the car. Between this and all the other garden work this year we will have a lot of soil, compost and woodchip to move so the wheelbarrow will probably get a lot of use.
It'll all be fine @Randommoose1. Much of what I've had to plant into is hardcore, below a thin layer of the soil from under the lawn. It's just a question of the right plants, not just for your soil, but for your climate. When I was digging out holes to plant, the soggy clay I took out looks like it should fill a hole three times the size because of the compaction. Your conditions look a bit drier, which makes it easier to work with, and the organic matter will work more rapidly. The awkward bits will need a bit more thought and effort, but as long as you get enough organic matter in there, and take plenty of time to establish whatever you put in, you should get a good result. Hard work but it'll be worth it.
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
@Fairygirl Thanks for the reassurance! At my previous house I planted a lavender hedge into sticky yellow clay subsoil mixed with hardcore (no topsoil, it was a front garden under a weed membrane and gravel). It grew wonderfully and is still thriving now more than a decade on. That was before I knew much about plants but what situations they liked! It is surprising what they will grow in sometimes.
I have been pleasantly surprised with the soil under this patio as I was expecting compacted sticky clay or a concrete base. It is very lucky it is this good!
I wonder if I just need organic matter or whether I need top soil as well? One website I was looking at their topsoil is sand mixed with compost - well I have the sand already... Elsewhere in the garden I need organic matter but not topsoil so if I am getting a tipper load it would probably be more useful to have one without topsoil. I have various other big beds to make (significantly bigger than this one, but removing lawn rather than patio) so a large bulk load would all get used.
Local suppliers include: County green waste processor - minimum order 4tons (6m3) tipper for £288 inc delivery (so £48m3) for basic soil improver. Local tree nursery I use a lot - topsoil £75 m3, mushroom compost £60m3 plus £15 delivery. I went there this morning and the topsoil is fine and black. The mushroom compost is coarser and smells rich. They can mix the two if I want. Various farms or horse owner advertising muck for sale, some will do tipper and delivery. No quotes yet though and runs the risk of not being fully rotted. Is aminopyralid still a risk? I know that was a risk back when I had the allotment years ago.
I can probably get another tipper of woodchip for mulch from the tree surgeon I got one from 18 months ago. That would most likely be free.
I have some spare topsoil from around the garden as well. Mainly rotted down grass turves from last year. I also have a full compost bin. Neither of those will go very far but can be added in as needed.
I also have a pond to dig out soon so there will be some top soil from that.
I think topsoil can be useful if you're needing to create a lot more bulk, but it does sound odd if they're describing compost and sand as topsoil. It can be tricky - perhaps that's the normal for your location though? My experience of manure comes from where I worked. I knew the product and have used it extensively, but - that doesn't mean every place will be good, or reliable. That might be more iffy for you. The tree nursery sounds more like the right job- a nursery is more likely to have a decent product in my experience, and it sounds great. Mushroom compost is ideal as you have an alkaline soil too. It's not so good for acid loving plants, but again- it comes down to quantity, and the existing soil. I've used pelleted chicken manure and soil improver in the past [while growing rhodos, camellias, skimmias etc] without any problem. If your soil from digging the pond is decent, that'll be ideal for later additions too. It's just that thing of getting a viable mix that provides nourishment, and also improves the structure of the soil. That means most plants stand a good chance of thriving.
The lavender will have been happy as the soil would have been poor, but there would have been enough moisture there to keep it happy too. It's the combination of factors again. It also grows extremely well here, during the summer, as it's wet enough for them to really grow well, but where it fails is over winter, because it gets woody and manky due to the cold.
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
Regarding topsoil - I am trying to avoid increasing bulk. The patio needs to be lowered a fair bit (10cm near the house, more than that near the lawn) as it has been built too high and water sometimes goes in the air bricks. Elsewhere in the garden doesn't need any more soil.
Ideally I would just put organic matter and that mixed together with the sand and the clay should hopefully make a decent topsoil. I can't use chicken pellets or blood, fish, bone as the local fox and my dog think that tastes delicious. So seaweed feed and compost are my ways of adding nutrition. Mostly my garden relies on woodchip though. I mulch with it, the worms take it down over 1-2 years and I don't normally fertilise, sometimes do the fruit trees but that is it.
Manure was fine when I knew a dairy farmer personally so could check about aminopyralid etc, but it grew lots of weeds as it seems the weed seeds hadn't been killed off with the rotting down process.
I haven't yet tried digging since my hand injury but might give it a bit of a go. I was fine after using the fork to poke around and lift loose cement over the weekend (wearing the brace) so maybe digging would work now. If not then I will rope my husband into doing some pond digging to get the topsoil out. There isn't much topsoil in that location, only about 6 inches so we could get that out and into this bed and make do with that to avoid buying any, just get the mushroom compost.
This weekend my husband has worked on getting those last 6 slabs out. The slabs themselves are pretty easy but it turns out these have 6 inches of concrete under the cement so that has been a lot of pick axing for him to remove that. We have a few barrows worth in a pile waiting to go to the tip as well the the barrow load pictured and a couple more chunks in the soil.
It is nice to get one of the air bricks clear of the patio. The patio was laid too high previously and the water sometimes goes in the air bricks if it is very heavy rain so when we bought the house we knew we needed to lower the levels, just haven't got round to it yet. They need a full brick course clear below them so we will make sure any future patio or beds don't go higher than that.
Still a couple of rocks of concrete to remove as well as some smaller rubble if I feel like it:
Big chunks of concrete under there!:
Thankfully the concrete wasn't attached to the house foundations and the bits near the house (that couldn't be done with the pick axe in case of damage) levered out ok.
I've been calculating the new design and in the back garden there will be approx. 40 m2 of new planting where lawn or patio is being removed. So 4m3 of compost if I am doing 10cm deep. Some areas might only need 5cm deep though so I could get 3m3. I'll see what the local tree nursery can deliver in one go (not sure how big their tippers are) and decide what I can face spending!
I think it might be better to put a decent edging round your bed. The position of that air brick is quite worrying, and you'll be forever trying to make sure you avoid covering it. You can leave a gap there - maybe a row of paving, or just a strip of gravel. Something to tie in with your new patio. Also - if you're re doing the patio and lawn, that's would really need doing before you get too involved with the border - the patio anyway. You risk damage to any new plants if you rush it. Builders aren't exactly careful around plants Having said that, just adding organic matter will be the best solution for the soil, and you could have a mixture of soil and manure, as the soil will give you better water retention, but I should have clarified that I meant horse manure, from stabled animals. Cow manure isn't the same, and you're far more likely to get weeds in it. The bagged stuff is fine though. I'm afraid you'll have to spend a bit, regardless of the approach.
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
I was planning to have the air brick separated from the bed, I know how important it is after we moved here and fell through the floor as it had rotted through as all the air brick had been blocked up! I had to replace all the floors myself (we were doing mostly DIY renovation) which took a lot of work. I have opened up all the air bricks, cleared all the underfloor rubble etc and now there is a good breeze under the floors so I won't risk compromising that.
Long term the bed will be edged, for now we am focussing on digging it out, getting organic matter on and giving the worms time to work it in. Other than climbers on the fence there is unlikely to be any planting for now other than seeding Phacelia as a green manure to avoid too many weeds.
I am a bit behind with planning as the original plan was we were doing the front garden and a side extension this year and only planning the back garden. However a couple of weeks ago we decided to put the extension on hold and do the back garden as well this year so it is all a bit last minute! I haven't even started getting hard landscaping quotes. But we will be cutting out the planned beds (and seeding with Phacelia) and seeing what they look like and if we like it before getting the hard landscaping done. As you say, the proper planting up would be best to wait until after that is done to avoid damage.
Thank you for replying, it is really helpful to have other input and suggestions
That's good re the air brick. Not much fun falling through a floor though. You sometimes wonder about previous homeowners don't you! I know what you mean about doing lots of projects too. It's sometimes hard to prioritise. I've done plenty of house renovations and it can be difficult when you want to get on with another project but it's a case of having to get one bit in order before you can get on to the next bit. This house is probably the easiest one I've had in that regard as I just needed to add a simple extension, but for various reasons I had to wait a couple of years, so one area of the garden had to remain pretty ugly and unloved until that was done, and I had to carry on sleeping on the settee a bit longer. I'd forgotten how hideous it all was until I was looking for a photo for someone the other day and I looked back at the pix from 2013 and 2014. It's certainly changed a fair bit since then The green manure is a very useful thing to do. When I was doing my back lawn here, it was a bit late in the year for them to germinate well, but at this time of year that will be great. I look forward to seeing all your changes, and when you get it planted up. It's very satisfying
It's a place where beautiful isn't enough of a word....
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
Posts
Counting outwards from the house, slabs 5-8 are laid on cement with sand underneath and the clay subsoil under that. Slabs 9-10 were laid on soil (maybe originally sand as well?). Slab 4 and I suspect 1-3 have cement, then sand, then a proper hardcore base and I didn't get down far enough to find the clay. Maybe those first 2.4m (4 slabs) originally had a different patio laid by someone who did a more thorough job of preparing the base? The rest of the patio has more uneven levels.
Slabs 5-10 soil is pretty good considering the amount of sand in there and that the soil is only from the edges, the cracks and what the worms have incorporated. I think this will be a good base for topsoil and organic matter:
Under slab 4 there is no soil, just sand and hardcore. I haven't been able to remove some of the big bits about 15cm below this. Maybe once slabs 1-3 are up it might be easier? If the hardcore doesn't come out then I will need to plan carefully what and how to plant. However the passionflower and fuchsia are planted just at the top of this photo and thriving. The other side of the fence is just stone on top of concrete house foundations that are at least a metre deep or deep hardcore under their patio so they don't have any soil to access there, it is all what they have rooted into under our patio.
It is exciting seeing it progress and it will be lovely when it can be planted up in the future. For now it is getting the ground uncovered and then getting topsoil and organic matter delivered and on. We bought a wheelbarrow today which has already been useful for moving cement to the car. Between this and all the other garden work this year we will have a lot of soil, compost and woodchip to move so the wheelbarrow will probably get a lot of use.
The awkward bits will need a bit more thought and effort, but as long as you get enough organic matter in there, and take plenty of time to establish whatever you put in, you should get a good result. Hard work but it'll be worth it.
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
I have been pleasantly surprised with the soil under this patio as I was expecting compacted sticky clay or a concrete base. It is very lucky it is this good!
I wonder if I just need organic matter or whether I need top soil as well? One website I was looking at their topsoil is sand mixed with compost - well I have the sand already... Elsewhere in the garden I need organic matter but not topsoil so if I am getting a tipper load it would probably be more useful to have one without topsoil. I have various other big beds to make (significantly bigger than this one, but removing lawn rather than patio) so a large bulk load would all get used.
Local suppliers include:
County green waste processor - minimum order 4tons (6m3) tipper for £288 inc delivery (so £48m3) for basic soil improver.
Local tree nursery I use a lot - topsoil £75 m3, mushroom compost £60m3 plus £15 delivery. I went there this morning and the topsoil is fine and black. The mushroom compost is coarser and smells rich. They can mix the two if I want.
Various farms or horse owner advertising muck for sale, some will do tipper and delivery. No quotes yet though and runs the risk of not being fully rotted. Is aminopyralid still a risk? I know that was a risk back when I had the allotment years ago.
I can probably get another tipper of woodchip for mulch from the tree surgeon I got one from 18 months ago. That would most likely be free.
I also have a pond to dig out soon so there will be some top soil from that.
My experience of manure comes from where I worked. I knew the product and have used it extensively, but - that doesn't mean every place will be good, or reliable. That might be more iffy for you.
The tree nursery sounds more like the right job- a nursery is more likely to have a decent product in my experience, and it sounds great. Mushroom compost is ideal as you have an alkaline soil too. It's not so good for acid loving plants, but again- it comes down to quantity, and the existing soil. I've used pelleted chicken manure and soil improver in the past [while growing rhodos, camellias, skimmias etc] without any problem.
If your soil from digging the pond is decent, that'll be ideal for later additions too. It's just that thing of getting a viable mix that provides nourishment, and also improves the structure of the soil. That means most plants stand a good chance of thriving.
The lavender will have been happy as the soil would have been poor, but there would have been enough moisture there to keep it happy too. It's the combination of factors again. It also grows extremely well here, during the summer, as it's wet enough for them to really grow well, but where it fails is over winter, because it gets woody and manky due to the cold.
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
Regarding topsoil - I am trying to avoid increasing bulk. The patio needs to be lowered a fair bit (10cm near the house, more than that near the lawn) as it has been built too high and water sometimes goes in the air bricks. Elsewhere in the garden doesn't need any more soil.
Ideally I would just put organic matter and that mixed together with the sand and the clay should hopefully make a decent topsoil. I can't use chicken pellets or blood, fish, bone as the local fox and my dog think that tastes delicious. So seaweed feed and compost are my ways of adding nutrition. Mostly my garden relies on woodchip though. I mulch with it, the worms take it down over 1-2 years and I don't normally fertilise, sometimes do the fruit trees but that is it.
Manure was fine when I knew a dairy farmer personally so could check about aminopyralid etc, but it grew lots of weeds as it seems the weed seeds hadn't been killed off with the rotting down process.
I haven't yet tried digging since my hand injury but might give it a bit of a go. I was fine after using the fork to poke around and lift loose cement over the weekend (wearing the brace) so maybe digging would work now. If not then I will rope my husband into doing some pond digging to get the topsoil out. There isn't much topsoil in that location, only about 6 inches so we could get that out and into this bed and make do with that to avoid buying any, just get the mushroom compost.
It is nice to get one of the air bricks clear of the patio. The patio was laid too high previously and the water sometimes goes in the air bricks if it is very heavy rain so when we bought the house we knew we needed to lower the levels, just haven't got round to it yet. They need a full brick course clear below them so we will make sure any future patio or beds don't go higher than that.
Still a couple of rocks of concrete to remove as well as some smaller rubble if I feel like it:
Big chunks of concrete under there!:
Thankfully the concrete wasn't attached to the house foundations and the bits near the house (that couldn't be done with the pick axe in case of damage) levered out ok.
I've been calculating the new design and in the back garden there will be approx. 40 m2 of new planting where lawn or patio is being removed. So 4m3 of compost if I am doing 10cm deep. Some areas might only need 5cm deep though so I could get 3m3. I'll see what the local tree nursery can deliver in one go (not sure how big their tippers are) and decide what I can face spending!
Having said that, just adding organic matter will be the best solution for the soil, and you could have a mixture of soil and manure, as the soil will give you better water retention, but I should have clarified that I meant horse manure, from stabled animals. Cow manure isn't the same, and you're far more likely to get weeds in it. The bagged stuff is fine though.
I'm afraid you'll have to spend a bit, regardless of the approach.
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...
I was planning to have the air brick separated from the bed, I know how important it is after we moved here and fell through the floor as it had rotted through as all the air brick had been blocked up! I had to replace all the floors myself (we were doing mostly DIY renovation) which took a lot of work. I have opened up all the air bricks, cleared all the underfloor rubble etc and now there is a good breeze under the floors so I won't risk compromising that.
Long term the bed will be edged, for now we am focussing on digging it out, getting organic matter on and giving the worms time to work it in. Other than climbers on the fence there is unlikely to be any planting for now other than seeding Phacelia as a green manure to avoid too many weeds.
I am a bit behind with planning as the original plan was we were doing the front garden and a side extension this year and only planning the back garden. However a couple of weeks ago we decided to put the extension on hold and do the back garden as well this year so it is all a bit last minute! I haven't even started getting hard landscaping quotes. But we will be cutting out the planned beds (and seeding with Phacelia) and seeing what they look like and if we like it before getting the hard landscaping done. As you say, the proper planting up would be best to wait until after that is done to avoid damage.
Thank you for replying, it is really helpful to have other input and suggestions
I know what you mean about doing lots of projects too. It's sometimes hard to prioritise. I've done plenty of house renovations and it can be difficult when you want to get on with another project but it's a case of having to get one bit in order before you can get on to the next bit.
This house is probably the easiest one I've had in that regard as I just needed to add a simple extension, but for various reasons I had to wait a couple of years, so one area of the garden had to remain pretty ugly and unloved until that was done, and I had to carry on sleeping on the settee a bit longer. I'd forgotten how hideous it all was until I was looking for a photo for someone the other day and I looked back at the pix from 2013 and 2014. It's certainly changed a fair bit since then
The green manure is a very useful thing to do. When I was doing my back lawn here, it was a bit late in the year for them to germinate well, but at this time of year that will be great.
I look forward to seeing all your changes, and when you get it planted up. It's very satisfying
I live in west central Scotland - not where that photo is...