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Subsoil and an extra underlay or not in a frog pond?

6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft Posts: 6
in Problem solving
I bought an RSPB frog pond kit, which doesn’t indicate that I need another underlay and subsoil on top of it.  I’ve read some of the discussions about this, and I’ve looked at three books, as well.  I’m totally vexed as to what to do and am at the point where I need to make a decision.  People who used an extra underlay and subsoil:  did this work out for you?  Thanks so much.  
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Posts

  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    The purpose of the underlay is to stop things like sharp stones puncturing the liner.
    I always use an underlay of some sort to be on the safe-side.

    I'm guessing this is the liner you bought, which mentions it does come with a fleece underlay which is what I use.
    https://shopping.rspb.org.uk/wildlife-friendly-garden/gardening/rspb-pond-liner-kits.html

    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • 6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft Posts: 6
    Thanks!  And yes — that is the kit I purchased.  And I do have the felt underlay (it’s quite pretty, actually).  But, for example, in “How to Create a Wildlife Pond” by Kate Bradbury, she calls for a second underlay over the Butyl liner and to put subsoil (less nutrient-rich) on top of that.  This isn’t something I was planning on doing — but should I?  Grateful for your thoughts and experience on this.  
  • bédébédé Posts: 3,095
    edited October 2022
    RSPB. What is their agenda? Attract frogs in order to feed the birds?

    I asked a Reptile charity what was the best way to discourage grass snakes from visiting my pond and eating my fish and frogs. The tenor of their reply was: I should be so lucky, forget the fish and enjoy the snake.

     I bet the RSPB don't sell anti-heron netting as an add-on to their kit.
     location: Surrey Hills, England, ex-woodland acidic sand.
    "Have nothing in your garden that you don't know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."
  • FireFire Posts: 19,096
    forget the fish and enjoy the snake.


    Amen

  • bédébédé Posts: 3,095
    Fire, it's nice to have a loyal fan of my "original" and sometimes "humorous". but often "helpful" posts.
     location: Surrey Hills, England, ex-woodland acidic sand.
    "Have nothing in your garden that you don't know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful."
  • 6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft Posts: 6
    bédé said:
    RSPB. What is their agenda? Attract frogs in order to feed the birds?

    I asked a Reptile charity what was the best way to discourage grass snakes from visiting my pond and eating my fish and frogs. The tenor of their reply was: I should be so lucky, forget the fish and enjoy the snake.

     I bet the RSPB don't sell anti-heron netting as an add-on to their kit.
    I think it’s to attract the frogs to eat the snails and slugs, which is an issue on the allotment.  And the pond isn’t just for frogs, any way.  
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    Ah right.
    Personally I wouldn't add soil to the liner, but if it's a butyl liner you could without the need for another covering.
    It will take a year or so for your pond to settle.
    Initially you'll get lots of algae and blanketweed, but that will clear of its own accord in a year or so once the pond has balanced out and the plants grow thereby starving the algae and blanketweed of nutrients causing them to die off.

    Add oxygenators - hornwort is very good, but it takes a year or so to settle in, so at first you'll think it's died, but the following year it magically re-appears.
    Puddle Plants is one of the best sources for wildlife pond plants, but there won't be much available until next spring.

    What Kate is saying in her book about adding low-nutrient soil isn't really needed.
    Within a year or so, you'll have a layer of silt on the bottom of the pond which will is a more natural way of adding something for plants to root into. You'll also get much less of an algae problem allowing some silt to build up naturally rather than add soil.


    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • philippasmith2philippasmith2 Posts: 3,742
    6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft said:
    Thanks!  And yes — that is the kit I purchased.  And I do have the felt underlay (it’s quite pretty, actually).  But, for example, in “How to Create a Wildlife Pond” by Kate Bradbury, she calls for a second underlay over the Butyl liner and to put subsoil (less nutrient-rich) on top of that.  This isn’t something I was planning on doing — but should I?  Grateful for your thoughts and experience on this.  
    Did Kate Bradbury offer any reason for her suggested use of Underlay over the actual liner ?  I've certainly never used it like that - underlay, liner, no soil ( a decent "sludge" will eventually build up and create a good habitat for the various creatures over time ).
    Bit like laying carpet - the underlay goes underneath - hence the name  ;)
    You don't really create a "Frog Pond" as such - if frogs are about, they will hopefully use your pond and so will much else.
    Good luck and hope you get many hours of enjoyment from it  :)  
  • 6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft Posts: 6
    philippasmith2 said:
    6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft said:
    Thanks!  And yes — that is the kit I purchased.  And I do have the felt underlay (it’s quite pretty, actually).  But, for example, in “How to Create a Wildlife Pond” by Kate Bradbury, she calls for a second underlay over the Butyl liner and to put subsoil (less nutrient-rich) on top of that.  This isn’t something I was planning on doing — but should I?  Grateful for your thoughts and experience on this.  
    Did Kate Bradbury offer any reason for her suggested use of Underlay over the actual liner ?  I've certainly never used it like that - underlay, liner, no soil ( a decent "sludge" will eventually build up and create a good habitat for the various creatures over time ).
    Bit like laying carpet - the underlay goes underneath - hence the name  ;)
    You don't really create a "Frog Pond" as such - if frogs are about, they will hopefully use your pond and so will much else.
    Good luck and hope you get many hours of enjoyment from it  :)  
    Thanks so much.  Bradbury suggested that the underlay and subsoil would work to anchor plants.  Your reply is very helpful.  I’m grateful.  And I can’t wait for this uncertain period to be over and just look at the pond and think I’m helping wildlife.  
  • 6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft6bhpsmp272e-jg6Vft Posts: 6
    Pete.8 said:
    Ah right.
    Personally I wouldn't add soil to the liner, but if it's a butyl liner you could without the need for another covering.
    It will take a year or so for your pond to settle.
    Initially you'll get lots of algae and blanketweed, but that will clear of its own accord in a year or so once the pond has balanced out and the plants grow thereby starving the algae and blanketweed of nutrients causing them to die off.

    Add oxygenators - hornwort is very good, but it takes a year or so to settle in, so at first you'll think it's died, but the following year it magically re-appears.
    Puddle Plants is one of the best sources for wildlife pond plants, but there won't be much available until next spring.

    What Kate is saying in her book about adding low-nutrient soil isn't really needed.
    Within a year or so, you'll have a layer of silt on the bottom of the pond which will is a more natural way of adding something for plants to root into. You'll also get much less of an algae problem allowing some silt to build up naturally rather than add soil.

    Cool.  Very helpful tips.  Hornwort…. Puddle plants in the spring.  Much appreciated.  
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