'ists' and 'isms'

steveTu · December 2020

From the 'more female or more male gardeners' thread - posted here to avoid taking that thread off at a tangent.
I find 'ist' and 'ism' words so hard to define clearly in my head...

@Ferdinand2000 @Omori
I saw the Anton Ferdinand/John Terry thing on iPlayer recently. How can you tell the difference between an 'ism' (sexism, racism...etc) and someone just being a complete a*****le?
And is then hurling offensive abuse at anyone acceptable if it isn't classed as being 'ist'?
I felt for Anton - and thought the court finding so strange (but that may be due to me disliking Terry so much) - but it seems that using offensive language to wind up an opponent and get 'inside their head' is commonplace. It's a 'man's game' (which covers a multitude of sins eh?) though eh? I wonder if the same thing goes on in the women's game?
I think it was common for Wenger to be called a paedophile by the opposing fans - but that wasn't an 'ism', so was acceptable (?) - or at least no one that I am aware of was ever prosecuted for it, even though it went on for years - but if he'd been targeted as being Jewish, that would have been an 'ism' and people could (should?) have been prosecuted.
I really don't think you can judge if a person is 'ist' based on one or two comments - especially if those comments are part of so called 'mind games'. I'm not excusing the behaviour, far from it, as I find it odd that footballers can wear a 'Respect' badge and then hurl ANY offensive abuse (apart from 'ist') at anyone, especially the officials.
Where is that line though that someone steps over to become an 'ist'?

If I said I thought more women than men gardened, that would be ok? If I coined a phrase 'gardenwife' to refer to those women - would that be acceptable? If I used 'housewife' is that acceptable? What about 'working mum'?
I saw someone say here about men hating women as though it was commonplace. I really don't recognise that at all (I am not aware of any male who hates women) - if anything I see men hating men. Or do I? Do I really just see people chasing power over others - irrespective of gender? 'Isms' and 'ists' to me imply some for of hate/dislike of the target - but I'm not sure that is always why abuse is used - I would guess that in a lot of cases that the 'ist' term is used as a control - to exert control over the other - OR to (as maybe in Terry's case) get a reaction (like trolls do on the net - the wind up and (presumably) pleasure they get when they see someone 'bite'). Then there are a small number that don't even realise that they're being 'ist' - as offence is in the receiver eh? and what is offensive to one person isn't to another.

Posy · December 2020

Crumbs! lots of things to think about, there. Do men hate women? I feel that historically, men have wished to dominate other people for many reasons and women have always been a first target because 1) it's easier, 2) we live close together and compete for resources and control 3)women have things men want but they may refuse access, and perhaps most, we resent the things we want and cannot have.

There are men today who declare that they hate women because women have rejected their advances. They feel they have a right to sexual gratification which women have refused. Some men bully and control women. There is a long tradition that women are in some way inferior or dangerous or in need of control and 'protection'. Many of these ideas are alive and well - look at Saudi norms.

And that's just women! When we come to your isms and ists, it becomes endless. There always seems to be a good reason to despise anyone different from me. Growing up in the 60's, I used to hope we could change this but now I'm not so sure.

B3 · December 2020

I think that a lot of men fear women rather than hate them.

Posy · December 2020

That's true. But often we hate what we fear. Life's too complicated for me to understand these days!

Palustris · December 2020

One of the wisest things my father ever said to me was that the hardest thing to do was to allow someone to hold an opinion which was different from ones own. Very true these days.

steveTu · December 2020

Maybe its me @posy but I don't remember ever hating anyone, so I find such concepts difficult to get my head around. However, I am biased and bigoted. I hate American culture (actually I use the term hate, but I don't really) - although the Americans I have met, I have liked. I worked in Nigeria, and 'hated' the Nigerian corruption - so that is racist in its own right eh? (as I'm tarring all Nigerians with the actions of the few) - but liked the majority of the Nigerians I worked with. I loved the Greeks that I worked with and the Thais. Can you dislike a culture without being racist?

I use 'love' and 'hate' - but humans use wrong terms. I don't hate and don't love. The terms are used by me as to emphasise depth only.

I think what's lost is that HUMANs dominate others based on difference. That can be hair colour, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, religion - anything. If we ever leave this planet, we'll do the same elsewhere. We categorise and organise based on difference and give value based on those differences whether warranted or not.

What gets lost is that man (humanity) is just nasty in general. Men kill men - but when women have power, they don't change that. Britain is defined by Lizzie I and Victoria - and how is Boudicca remembered - for her philanthropy? Maggie sent us to war over some islands somewhere. Thousands died. Its power that controls. Power. People then excuse the use of that power by quoting difference. We use class in this country - as do others - so pick any difference and I bet someone has been bullied over it. Tall? Short? Wear glasses? Stutter? Talk posh? Spots? Fat? Thin? Hairy? Bald? Big ears? Small ears? Big IQ? Small IQ?.....

BUT are people afraid of or do they hate someone with big ears? No - I doubt it. Can they use that to bully? Yep.

steveTu · December 2020

..another odd thought...

A friend came round a few years back whose kids had gone to the same school as ours. I asked how the kids were doing and I got:

'...Boy1 has just got a scholarship at the local college and that's going well. Boy2 is now working and doing fine. The girl is having a bit of a hard time at Uni, she's in her first year and been on the phone a few times in tears. We've brought her back home - although we hope she'll go back. Not like a boy though - you can't just tell them to 'man up' can you?....'

Is that sexist? And if it is, to who?

Dovefromabove · December 2020

steveTu said:

..another odd thought...
A friend came round a few years back whose kids had gone to the same school as ours. I asked how the kids were doing and I got:
'...Boy1 has just got a scholarship at the local college and that's going well. Boy2 is now working and doing fine. The girl is having a bit of a hard time at Uni, she's in her first year and been on the phone a few times in tears. We've brought her back home - although we hope she'll go back. Not like a boy though - you can't just tell them to 'man up' can you?....'
Is that sexist? And if it is, to who?

Both ... treat individuals according to their individual needs, not gender stereotypes.

And as an East Anglian I will just put in a word for Boudicca ... yes she's remembered for wreaking terrible vengence on the Romans, but she had considerable provocation, having been publicly flogged herself and her daughters raped ... by the Romans, simply as a means of establishing power over the area following the death of her husband who had been the ruler and co-operated with the Roman invaders. She wasn't prepared to lie down and take it ... any more than Margaret Thatcher was when she sent UK forces to take back the Falklands ... interesting that she was so often described as 'the best man in the Cabinet'.

Posy · December 2020

No, I don't think that I hate anyone, either, but I am really angry about the way people are judged and discriminated against for all sorts of absurd reasons. Those who discriminate often have justifications, religious, biological, cultural, that make my blood boil, but it goes very deep. When I was a secondary school teacher I discovered all sorts of prejudices I had never dreamt of before but could not overcome.
It IS about power, you are right, and how will we - the human race - ever rise above that?

steveTu · December 2020

@Dovefromabove

Provocation is an excuse? Didn't Anton have a go at Terry about his relationship with another player's wife? So Terry was then justified?

If I then think I have a 'right' to some area does it make it right to than take or defend that area with force? Who gives that right apart from might in the first place? Should the Welsh take back Britain?

Was Boudicca a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

But that gets away from the point - the point being you get very few pacifist leaders, whether male or female. The 'the working class can kiss my bum' bit is about power and it applies to both women and men. They all abuse power. Pratti Pitel is a case. Maggie was (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/23/margaret-thatcher-biography-adviser-early-warning) as she ended up (like Blair) believing in her own publicity. Trump is a bully because of power - odd as he comes across as effeminate to me - without the power could he bully?

@Posy

I'm not sure it does. I have a strong dislike of belief - as to me belief, on one hand, is the cause of so much evil. But on the other hand without belief, we wouldn't have achievement. Belief does both. Power is the same. Power, as in physics, is about difference , difference is energy and can be used for both good and bad. Ying and Yang.

B3 · December 2020

History books were generally written by men about ' manly' things_so if Boudicca or Elizabeth I did anything we would consider to be in touch with their feminine side we wouldn't have heard much about it

'ists' and 'isms'

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