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I've screwed up summer pruning one apple tree - advice please so I don't repeat my mistake

Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
in Fruit & veg
I have a Katy on M9 rootstock which was planted about 25 yrs ago.
I've tried to prune it as a dwarf pyramid (as per the Chris Bowers guide), but it didn't work out.
I've only had a handful of apples from it this year as most were jammed in the branches and just rotted.
Yesterday I decided to remove 25% of the masses of water shoots, but due to the huge amount of old gnarled congested branches I couldn't get close enough to prune anything.
Then I lost the plot..


I have another apple on M9 - a Hereford Russett planted 5 years ago.
It's not yet fruited and this is it today.
Any advice please as to how to prune it so it doesn't end up a maze of congested branches and twigs and I loose the plot again?
I think the problem is that the main stem has so many branches coming from it the whole tree ends-up a tangled mess and I don't want to screw this tree up if possible.



Thank you

Billericay - Essex

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

Posts

  • bertrand-mabelbertrand-mabel Posts: 2,697
    We have a Katya which is only pruned between Dec/Feb.
    2 older trees (already in our garden when we moved in over 40 years ago so no idea what they are) if pruned they send up water shoots no matter when they are pruned.
    So don't pruned yet. Have a look at the RHS advice on apple trees.
  • fidgetbonesfidgetbones Posts: 17,618
    Take a pair of secateurs and cut all new shoots back to leave two or three buds of new wood. These will form the blossom buds for next year. Do not summer prune back into older wood  unless it is diseased or rubbing on another branch.  Take your time. Stand back at regular intervals to look at it.  Take less off rather than more, you can always cut back again after the first cut.  Herefordshire Russett needs another group 3 to pollinate.
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    Thanks fidget - have just done as you suggest

    I'm going to need to thin out the branches, or it'll just end up a tangled mess of branches and spurs again as my poor Katy was.
    Is branch removal a winter job do you know?

    The tree hasn't yet produced any flowers, but both neighbours have group 3 apples (Bramley and Discovery). Just as well as Katy isn't going to be flowering next year..




    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • fidgetbonesfidgetbones Posts: 17,618
    edited August 2020
    In the winter, I would remove any larger branches that face inwards. The aim is to get a goblet shape with free air flow through to slow disease.  Any water shoots it then shoves up, prune at the end of summer, again to two or three buds. You may get flowers next year so long as you don't overprune and it puts all its energy into new shoots.  You can probably lose the stake and rubber band.
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    Cheers fidget.
    I'll be a bit more ambitious with the thinning of laterals in future winters to keep it open.
    I completely messed the Katy up as I never pruned out any laterals or sub-laterals so it just kept getting denser!
    Lesson learned - the hard way - especially for poor Katy :)

    I did loosen the tie the other day - then noticed the stake had snapped at ground level..

    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
  • strelitzia32strelitzia32 Posts: 758
    Wow you did get a bit frustrated with that first tree! It'll recover... As fidgetbones says, do most of the second tree pruning in winter except for water shoots, and you'll get fast regrowth from your winter cuts. Take out the crossing branches too. Don't take out more than a third when you winter prune, as well. It looks like you've got a good structure to base from though.

    I don't do much summer pruning at all, just a light trim in August when my trees start to encroach too much and cause space problems.
  • Pete.8Pete.8 Posts: 11,340
    Thanks @strelitzia32
    I have now learned that pruning dwarf trees is somewhat different from other trees and I now realise I need to start removing some of the laterals.
    I've read loads on the web, but it's often conflicting and I can't recall reading that laterals need to be removed to keep an open structure - but with hindsight I suppose it's obvious.
    It was only when I was looking at an espalier and noted there was a defined structure to the tree and I now know that's what is needed for mine.

    I'm sure Katy will recover. I have to confess it's not the first time that this has happened to her over the years... at least she's taught me a lesson with a little help from my friends here :)

    Billericay - Essex

    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
    Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
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