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New Rose bed

theconstantgardenerinwalestheconstantgardenerinwales Posts: 71
in Problem solving
Hello everyone, I hope you all enjoyed some good gardening this year and long may it continue.
Everything I planted did really well this year.
Except, I have had real problems due to rain, and gale force winds for months here in Mid Wales! 

Can you help me please? I have lived here 4 years and never seen weather like this!

I planted a new rose bed with 16 David Austin Shrub roses in October last year. The bed was a new raised bed filled with compost after I had put down cardboard on top of grass and rotted it down the previous year.

Before I planted the roses, I checked the depth of the bed and turned over the compost to see that the cardboard had rotted down and found that soil and worms were mixed with the compost. It looked in great condition for the new plants.
I used some roses from pots and some bare root and all grew well.

I was upset to have the storm winds uproot 2 of the roses just around flowering time, so I put in more compost and made sure the root balls were well covered. All was good and they grew really well until they had a massive invasion of green fly, then the winds and rain either blew off the heads of the flowers, or they got mildew and some had black spot!
I was really fed up so I treated the roses with Rose Clear. I had to do it twice but it did work ( much as I really wanted to be chemical free!! and have done so for the past 2 years.) I decided I couldn't afford to lose the money I had invested in the plants.

Although I lost many of the blooms, I did get a lot of flowers. However, most of the plants have now grown to over 4 foot high and are still waving about in the winds we still have here.  I have staked them as best I can! I intend to put manure on the bed to overwinter them but can anyone tell me if I should prune them back now after flowering to save the wind rock happening again. I know it should be later in the year but will I damage them? 
What would YOU do?
I appreciate any help you get give.
Many thanks. Hazel .

Posts

  • edhelkaedhelka Posts: 2,351
    Hi Hazel, it looks like we are in a similar position, relatively new in Wales, with windy gardens and roses.
    I will write a longer post on this topic but in the meantime, could you please add more details:
    - How thick is the layer of compost? Have you used any topsoil? When turning over, have you mixed the compost with soil?
    - Can you add some photos or described how windy your garden is, any windbreaks there, wind tunnels or sheltered spots? It can be tricky because the sunniest spots can be often the worst for wind.
    - Without adding personal details, are you very close to the coast or in a significant altitude or in any other way windier than average mid-Wales garden?
  • edhelkaedhelka Posts: 2,351
    So I checked some of your older threads and saw some photos. I read you moved to Wales from France, I assume you are used to very different weather.
    I would say this year hasn't been bad for gales, more like average. There was much more rain than usual in June and July but much less in April and May. All in all, it has been a weird season. Not good for roses and bad for blackspot.
    So, getting to your questions. 1st, roses can't grow in compost. Even in pots, they need soil/loam-based medium mixed with compost. In raised beds, I would use 80% topsoil and 10% rotted manure and 10% multipurpose compost, or a similar mix. The lower layers should be also mixed with the local soil.
    Compost is too lightweight for them, they can't anchor themselves well in it. With a lot of nice fluffy compost around, they won't root to the soil under the raised bed. And compost decomposes quickly into next to nothing and absolutely isn't suitable for permanent planting.
    Depending on how high the raised bed is, you could consider either redoing it (replanting all roses in winter and replacing the compost with a more suitable medium) or just topping up with topsoil (it will get washed down and mixed with compost with the help of worms).
    Another thing that would help (if you haven't done it already) is burying the grafts of your roses at least 5cm deep. This really helps against the wind rock and they can also grow new anchoring roots from the buried canes.
    If planted correctly, your roses shouldn't have any major problem with wind. Unless your garden is extremely windy. Some broken branches and lost blooms are expected. If you think your garden is very windy, consider adding a windbreak. Sometimes, even something simple like tall ornamental grass or trellis with a climber in a well-chosen spot can help really a lot.
    Pruning - Pruning in autumn to prevent wind rock is a good idea. Then you can prune again in February to remove dead or damaged wood and tidy the plants as needed. But your roses are young and you shouldn't do much pruning this year.
    Green flies - Everyone has them in spring and early summer, nothing unusual. They don't do much harm. You can wash them off with a stream of water.
    Mildew - Mildew is not common here. I've had it for the first time on two roses. I think it was the weird spring with warm dry days and cold nights. It usually isn't a major problem. But be sure to check the roses are watered enough, sometimes it can be caused by water stress.
    Blackspot - Blackspot is almost inevitable. Only 3 options to handle it:
    1) Growing only resistant varieties - most DA roses aren't blackspot resistant and don't do well for me. Some are better than others. Even if you see your roses as a precious investment, it's possible that they actually aren't the best roses for your area.
    2) Accepting it - the worst varieties defoliate by mid-August, average ones lose 30-50% of their leaves. They won't die.
    3) Spraying - it works but it can be harmful to bees.
    I have a no-spray garden with almost 50 roses and I combine approaches 1) and 2). I don't want to grow anything that can't survive without the assistance of fungicides. I only grow susceptible roses if I really really like them. And I am not afraid to try a rose and get rid of it if it doesn't work. It's not worth growing something that looks bad 11 months of the year.
    Some tips to get less blackspot: Remove infected leaves and fallen diseased leaves, don't water with a hose or in any way that gets the leaves wet, don't water in the evening, mulch to prevent soil splashing on the leaves, don't plant companion plants too close to the roses, make sure the airflow around them is as good as it can be.
  • theconstantgardenerinwalestheconstantgardenerinwales Posts: 71
    Good morning,
    Thank you for such an amazing comprehensive reply! You have given me some hope!
    I am sending some pictures and now know where the problems are thanks to you.
    We live in New Radnor in Powys. Nothing but concrete and pots, tall trees on one corner and grass when we moved here. We came from France where the weather was better as we lived on a hill top! NOT the bottom!
    The wind flipped over us going downhill. Also warmer. But It is so  beautiful here!!
    I wanted a cottage garden so I tried really hard. Probably should have gone for shorter growing plants!

    The wind here comes from the South West, over the back gate and bottom of the garden. We have got fencing there and it does help. It is based on top of a wall with trellis in front. . Other than making it 12 foot high we can't really go much higher. The bottom fences blew down! and we think we should replace them. We did have a trellis arch with a rose on it which also blew down 2 years ago. This year the wind is stronger!
    We are replacing the fence again and hoping it will stay.

    The rose bed is 8 inches deep and the compost was at the top when I planted on top of the earth.  No, sadly, I did not think to  mix it. Today, it is only 6  inches but there is good soil underneath, however the compost has certainly been sinking, and I will do as you say and top it up with soil. Some of the roses were in D. Austin  pots and I dug them deeper into the ground and they grew well. I guess I now have to do better!! I guess your suggestion of top soil is a much better choice, and I am prepared to move them completely if needed and start again. Yesterday I was giving up on gardening, today I am prepared to move mountains to fix it! ( not the ones in the background!)
    I had, as someone suggested when I sought advice about underplanting, put in Verbena Rigida and also Bonariensis on the edges of the bed but the wind just blew through them and  they are now taller than the roses. Lovely but also bending and snapping in the wind.
    You will be happy to know that on consulting David Austin roses last week, they told me they no longer use chemical sprays and gave me a garlic based recipe  that they use now.
    I have vowed to use it in future, having seen so many bees all over my garden.
    Your advice will also help. 

    As you can see, the garden is is in a dip and I now realise that the Dahlia bed I planted seems to have done better. ( L H Side of picture ) Although they have needed heavy staking and tying up. Also in their first year and despite nipping out the tips, more green than expected and taking over the world!! 
    If I changed over the beds, they would suffer the same problem. So I need your expert help and thank you so much. Have a wind free gardening day, IT IS QUIET HERE TODAY!!
    Hazel.







  • edhelkaedhelka Posts: 2,351
    I am happy to hear that you regained your enthusiasm. Gardening can have its ups and downs with all the pests, diseases and weather damage.
    You have a beautiful garden and some lovely hill views. Unfortunately, these hills probably make the wind worse for you, either accelerating it or making it very turbulent.
    I am between Caernarfon and Pen Llŷn, close to the coast and close to the Snowdonia NP borders. We get the south-westerly winds directly, they can be very strong but unless it is very gusty, plants are usually OK. Although I still make mistakes like thinking I'll get away with not fixing the greenhouse to the wall overwinter.
    I think, if you add some topsoil now (replant the verbena so they aren't buried), it will be fine. The level will probably drop a bit more over the winter and you can add some manure in late winter as a mulch if you want.
    Garlic recipe sounds interesting. It should help with aphids and maybe mildew but not much with blackspot. If you want another organic remedy, you can try Sulphur Rose spray, it leaves white blotches on the leaves but it's stronger than garlic.
    And if you have any photos of your roses or want to talk with rose lovers, please come to our 2020 Rose season thread.
  • edhelkaedhelka Posts: 2,351
    And good luck for tomorrow, it looks like mayhem again.

  • theconstantgardenerinwalestheconstantgardenerinwales Posts: 71
    Hello, 
    How professional are you? I even get a weather map!
    I am recommending you to take over from Monty when he retires! He only lives along the road, you can stay here before your tv spot!! 

    I am a retired Drama teacher but never let it be said that I can't take direction!!
    (I have not been inspired this much since Shakespeare!! Having said that,( I am really not that old!)

    All 14 Verbena moved and watered! Roses looking much better now and Top soil coming tomorrow!
    RESULT!!
    Thank you so much for you help edhelka, (what a great name.)
    After I sent you my pictures I read last year's Forum it was fantastic! and I will join the 2020 thread.
    I wish you luck too tomorrow. My advice to you, Fix the greenhouse to the wall.
    Best wishes, 
    Hazel .

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