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Fish/Blood/Bone and Mad Cow Disease

celcius_kkwcelcius_kkw Posts: 753
in Fruit & veg
So I’ve been using FBB in most things that I grow as I felt it was organic and potentially better for the environment. I’ve recently planted some tomatoes and used them too.. shortly after I came across an article suggesting a possible, although minute risk of contracting BSE/mad cow disease either from direct inhalation during the application of FBB or inadequate hand hygiene after handling of the product. Furthermore it’s not clear whether the particles/prion can be passed from soil to fruit and the implication of subsequent ingestion. 

I haven’t been able to find out where the source of FBB’s raw materials come from but westland’s packaging states its product is safe to use for growing fruit and veg. I don’t know if I’m just being paranoid but given a recent documentary that I watched suggested the government falsely reassured the public that British beef was ok at the beginning of the BSE era (and that obviously turned out to be false in the end) - I am not sure if I’m fully reassured by FBB manufactures’ claim that it’s safe to use in growing edible plants.. 
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  • Lizzie27Lizzie27 Posts: 12,494
    I don't think there have been any reports of people catching diseases directly attributal to FFB though.  
    North East Somerset - Clay soil over limestone
  • Hostafan1Hostafan1 Posts: 34,889
    If you're bothered , then don't use it.
    Devon.
  • steephillsteephill Posts: 2,841

    Short version is it is regarded as safe. UK regulations state it must be rendered at high temperature and pressure for long enough to ensure it is sterile - 133degC, 3 bar, for 20 minutes. Don't eat it though.
  • strelitzia32strelitzia32 Posts: 758
    Related question. I was perusing the side of my FBB pack (as you do, waiting for the rain), and I see it has warnings about using it on ground that will be used for livestock feed. I don't have the specific wording to hand, but it was something like "don't use it on ground that will feed livestock in the next 2 weeks if xyz, or the next 4 weeks if abc".

    No mention of ground that will feed humans!

    Anyone know if it's safe to use if I'm also harvesting veg? With succession planting I'm harvesting and resowing as I go, so there isn't really a 4 week hands off period...
  • celcius_kkwcelcius_kkw Posts: 753
    edited June 2020
    @strelitzia32 Yes, I’ve also noticed that statement too. Granted it doesn’t specify not to use on grounds that feed humans but surely what isn’t good for livestock wouldn’t be good for humans either? 

    @steephill Thank you for the link, I have come across that article before. The key question I’ve got having read it is that they have consistently quoted the term BSE- free raw materials - it is not possible to ascertain whether the raw materials used in the FBB sold in the UK are procured from within the country or abroad (unless I request for this information from the manufacturer) - and the UK is actually considered as a country with ‘controlled’ risk. FBB should only be considered safe if the raw materials come from BSE free or BSE negligible risk countries.. and the UK is not one of those countries according to the World Organisation for Animal Health. 

    https://www.oie.int/animal-health-in-the-world/official-disease-status/bse/list-of-bse-risk-status/

    But that said.. we’ve all been eating British beef anyway in recent years so I guess what’s good enough for our dinner plate would be alright for crops too...? After all one form or another they all end up in our belly..
  • SmudgeriiSmudgerii Posts: 185
    L M A O
  • HelixHelix Posts: 631
    When I first started as a gardener in the 60’s/70’s we were always told be be careful with FBB because of anthrax.  But I think now the greater risk is probably salmonella.  Use gloves, wash you hands  and try not to breathe it in.  

    Found this except from Momty Don’s book that was interesting...

    https://books.google.fr/books?id=koEnG1c3pVsC&pg=PT49&lpg=PT49&dq=fish+blood+and+bone+anthrax&source=bl&ots=3HYu7_RAHZ&sig=ACfU3U3Y8D3wXbFVvh5-Ph8xfkeKk8L6MA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicj_-i1InqAhUuxIUKHYgHDMgQ6AEwC3oECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=fish%20blood%20and%20bone%20anthrax&f=false
  • celcius_kkwcelcius_kkw Posts: 753
    edited June 2020
    @Helix that is most interesting.. and this was published in his book in 2005. It appears to me that my worry isn’t entirely baseless.. and it seems to be shared by a few others too. I don’t think anyone truly knows the answer to this, and in fact our understanding of BSE/vCJD is poor to start with, let alone it’s effects through secondary or tertiary consumption. I still remember how prion disease was so quickly glossed over in less than quarter of a page when I was in med school.. most probably because not enough was known about it. 

    I do think I will stop using FBB from now on.. but the more imminent question for me is whether I should throw away the few tomato plants that I’ve just recently potted up with compost mixed with FBB.. it does seem like a real waste considering I’ve grown them from seed...
  • PyraPyra Posts: 152
    Smudgerii said:
    L M A O

    I don't think this is a very helpful comment. 

    @celcius_kkw, I'm not a biologist, so if anyone on here is please do correct me on this. However I am an organic chemist, if that helps.

    The original BSE outbreak was caused by cows being fed remains of other cows, which passed on the prions that carried the disease. This can then get passed onto us. They do heat treat it to sterilise it. Prions are proteins, so get denatured and killed at high temperatures. @strelitzia32, that's why there's the warning on using it in fields with livestock, since the cows or sheep could come into contact with the prions, however unlikely that actually is. 

    The BSE outbreak caused a major shake-up of farming practices, and now we're aware of it manufactures and farmers are very keen to not have a repeat. Why herbivore cows were ever fed other cows, I don't know. Who thought that was a good idea?! That and the foot and mouth outbreak seriously damaged British agriculture, so if FBB was iffy it would be out the door straight away. 

    LD;DR, yeah, it's safe to use, it's been heat treated. But if you're concerned, don't use it on fruit or veg. But you do have more risk from a beef burger than FBB, as they (usually) aren't incinerated first. I hope this helps slightly. 
  • celcius_kkwcelcius_kkw Posts: 753
    edited June 2020
    @pyra88 Thank you.. that’s a helpful comment. I just re-read the article quoted by Steephill which does specify that FBB should all be treated at 130c/20’/3 bar which seems to be the optimal condition to achieve full denaturation of prion particles. Question has been raised about re-naturation of these proteins but apparently it has not been proven. 

    Out of interest, do you use FBB in your gardening practice? 😛
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